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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trump announces executive order that says legally there are only 2 genders (hmmm did he mis-speak and meant sex?)

1000 replies

IwantToRetire · 20/01/2025 17:39

Well this will add to the confusion.

Have just heard him use the word gender, even though earlier news reports had said he would say only 2 sexes.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

Trump to sign order proclaiming there are only two sexes

Donald Trump's government is set to recognise only two genders, male and female. The move will come as part of a swathe of executive orders the incoming president will sign on his first day back in the White House. It is one of two branded as "common...

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-sign-order-proclaiming-only-160700963.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
MarieDeGournay · 22/01/2025 21:43

I forgot to mention - lesbians aren't allowed march at many Pride parades, they've been excluded in advance or even removed by the police if they try to join in. So our interests certainly aren't represented in 'LGBTQ++'!

JanesLittleGirl · 22/01/2025 21:48

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:09

How much does it need to be spelled out? Now you’re feigning ignorance. Transwomen don’t want to be seen as men and they don’t present as men. That’s the whole point.

lots and lots of men are transphobic and homophobic too, in case you haven’t noticed, and will and do make gay and transgender people very uncomfortable with great regularity

So why must I budge up?

Snowypeaks · 22/01/2025 21:55

Lesbian Project.
That's another lesbian group that doesn't want to be force-teamed with the TQ.

MarieDeGournay · 22/01/2025 21:58

Snowypeaks · 22/01/2025 21:55

Lesbian Project.
That's another lesbian group that doesn't want to be force-teamed with the TQ.

And Get the L Out.

lechiffre55 · 22/01/2025 22:03

Time to bring up a legend. There was a young lesbian lady, who is sadly no longer with us. She didn't at all appreciate any of this, especially some fool trying to convince lebians they were being transphobic if they didn't like cock ( however the cock identified ).
Magdalen Berns.
It's a shame she's not still around to share her opinion with you. It would have been entertaining. She always was.
s

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?ab_channel=MagdalenBerns&t=10s&v=F_5FFGrGzJw

JanesLittleGirl · 22/01/2025 22:06

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 19:31

HOW will you enforce a rule against trans women in women’s toilets? Can not a single person respond?

Thank you so much for completely ignoring dignity and privacy as reasons that women need single sex spaces.

Transwomen will only be kept out of womens single sex spaces when it becomes legally and socially acceptable to call them out. The EO is one small step in this direction.

Snowypeaks · 22/01/2025 22:07

Gay Men's Network - they are also
LGB✂️T

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2025 22:08

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 20:59

So then we agree don’t we? I already dad I think there should be unisex toilets AND men and women’s toilets. Problem solved.

My other point though is that if someone has transitioned to be a woman and fully presents as one, how would you then keep them out of women’s toilets, if you can’t tell by looking at them that they’re transgender?

If no one can tell the man in the ladies toilet is a woman he's not going to trigger any of the "he's a man" alarm bells that clang in my head when I see a bloke.

HOWEVER very very very very few actually pass as women.

The transwoman might think he does because all his friends have been being all nice and kind and assuring him he totally passes as a woman "You go girl!

The transwoman might think the heavy filters he uses in his selfies means everyone sees him like the filtered image of himself.

The transwoman may even be convinced he passes as a woman enough that when he stands in front of the mirror he doesn't see 6 foot 4 Dave with the bulge in his crotch, chest hair, male pattern baldness, a beard and a beer gut but a 5ft 4 svelte woman called Sandra instead.

The transwoman might think taking cross sex hormones, having bags of silicone inserted under the skin on his chest, having his dick inverted and wearing what he thinks are 'women's' clothes and make up with a nice shade of lippy means he truly is now a woman.

But I'll bet the majority of them are clocked as transwomen the second they walk in to most rooms.

But it's all irrelevant. A transwoman is a man and quite frankly I don't give a shiny shit if I upset his fragile sense of self or where he actually does end up going to the toilet. Not my problem to solve as long as he stays the fuck out of the women's toilets.

I shouldn't have to keep him out of the women's toilet, he should bloody well keep himself out because he absolutely, even if he is one of the miniscule number of those men who passes as a woman, knows he isn't and that he is a man.

lechiffre55 · 22/01/2025 22:10

@Boiledbeetle
You forgot the cockettish head tilt and girly pillow fight sleepovers.
How could you not be convinced by those?

AliceNutterWasAWoman · 22/01/2025 22:14

@leftorrightnow
for all of you of of different views I have some questions:

  • what toilets do you want transgender women to use?

Men's or unisex. (NOT accessible toilets, which disabled people fought long and hard for.)

  • do you think that transgender people should be allowed to exist at all?

I don't think they should have a legal status of being the opposite sex to their biological sex. I don't think anyone should be forced to pretend that someone has changed sex, because that is scientifically impossible.

  • what would you say to your child if they came home and said they wanted to identify as their non-biological gender?

I would tell them that it is impossible to change sex and do everything in my power to make them comfortable in their own sex

Datun · 22/01/2025 22:16

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:03

To clarify - I do not want to make it illegal for trans women to use women’s toilets because I think that would be absurd and unenforceable.

I think there should be third spaces provided so whoever wants to use these can. And also always still separate men and women’s facilities. Yes it’s a lot of toilets to build, I do see that. I think probably if the main idea was to prevent violence against women, money would be better spend on DV shelters, but if that’s what’s needed to calm down the terf panic then I guess it’s a good investment

Edited

You're the one who wants to build a load of toilets on behalf of people who don't want them and you don't represent!

If that's not panic, I don't know what is!

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2025 22:22

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:09

How much does it need to be spelled out? Now you’re feigning ignorance. Transwomen don’t want to be seen as men and they don’t present as men. That’s the whole point.

lots and lots of men are transphobic and homophobic too, in case you haven’t noticed, and will and do make gay and transgender people very uncomfortable with great regularity

It does not matter what the man wants to be seen as. It does not matter how the man presents. It does not matter if the man has a new feminine sounding name. It does not matter if the man thinks with his entire being that he is not a man.

And it doesn't matter because he is a man. An adult human male. And no amount of positive thinking, surgery, hormones, clothes, hair, make up, vocal training, legislation or bloody moonbeams he wished on he, from the absolute moment of conception is male. He was male in the womb, he's male now, he'll be male when he dies, he'll be male at an autopsy and he'll be male when they dig up his bones.

That's the whole point.

And why is men being homophobic or transphobic to other men anything to do with the women of Mumsnet? If men make other men uncomfortable why is that a woman's problem to solve?

oakleaffy · 22/01/2025 22:30

@Boiledbeetle 🎯 Absolutely spot on.

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2025 22:32

lechiffre55 · 22/01/2025 22:10

@Boiledbeetle
You forgot the cockettish head tilt and girly pillow fight sleepovers.
How could you not be convinced by those?

My bad!

😁

FlowchartRequired · 22/01/2025 22:32

... but Boiled... what if his skirt is really, really spinny?

GailBlancheViola · 22/01/2025 22:34

My other point though is that if someone has transitioned to be a woman and fully presents as one, how would you then keep them out of women’s toilets, if you can’t tell by looking at them that they’re transgender?

Why are you insisting that the onus is on women to keep them out? Why wouldn't a transwomen have the decency and respect to stay out of women's toilets knowing full well those toilets are not for them?

You are obviously of the opinion leftorrightnow that rules on single sex toilets will have to be enforced because transwomen will not abide by the rules for them so fine let's enforce it by making it a criminal offence.

As to where transwomen go to the toilet - it's easy the one designated for their sex, if they don't want to then campaign for alternative provision but frankly after the behaviour of members of the trans community in recent times I actually don't care where they go provided transwomen stay out of women's toilets - their issue, their problem, theirs to sort out.

As for the oft repeated mantra of transwomen being unsafe in the men's toilets that is an utter load of bunkum. Many transwomen already use the men's and despite searching extensively there are NO, that is zero, nil, none recorded incidents of transwomen coming to any harm in the men's.

lechiffre55 · 22/01/2025 22:35

FlowchartRequired · 22/01/2025 22:32

... but Boiled... what if his skirt is really, really spinny?

Yeah @Boiledbeetle you bigot! Like REALLY spinny? and got flowers on it, what then eh? Can't answer can you?

Boiledbeetle · 22/01/2025 22:36

FlowchartRequired · 22/01/2025 22:32

... but Boiled... what if his skirt is really, really spinny?

Oh, well then I'm all in. Totally a woman if it's really REALLY spinny!

ETA and if there's flowers I'll even settle for just really spinny.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 07:38

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:09

How much does it need to be spelled out? Now you’re feigning ignorance. Transwomen don’t want to be seen as men and they don’t present as men. That’s the whole point.

lots and lots of men are transphobic and homophobic too, in case you haven’t noticed, and will and do make gay and transgender people very uncomfortable with great regularity

It is not the point that people want to be seen as something they are not. What if we all made demands based upon deep feelings that were ultimately not in touch with reality. We could all 'identify as; anything we liked and expect to be treated as such. Single sex spaces are just that...for people of one sex or other...for good reason.

'Dressing up and presenting as' is just performance art or play.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 07:49

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 20:55

For anyone still in doubt and unable to respond to questions and instead just accusing me of flip flopping here are my views clearly stated:

I believe that transgender people should be allowed to exist and to have safe spaces. I do not think it is safe (or dignified as Trump would also say) for transgender women to have to use men’s toilets.

i believe transgender people should have the right to hormone therapy when they are of age (not before 18)

I think there should be a third category for sporting events

for all of you of of different views I have some questions:

  • what toilets do you want transgender women to use?
  • do you think that transgender people should be allowed to exist at all?
  • what would you say to your child if they came home and said they wanted to identify as their non-biological gender?

Transgender people exist, always have, and always will. You can’t control that. You may not like it, but you can’t stop other people from dressing as they please and having hormone therapy or surgery if they want. Not unless you want to make being transgender illegal? Throw them in prison? Is that what you want?

so as these people exist we need to find a way where they can be safe and where women can be safe too. I don’t think that’s too hard, if you cut through all the noise and exaggerated panic.

In my 44 years of life, living in three countries and meeting peoples from all walks of life, I have never ever been molested or bothered in any way shape or from by a trans person. I have, on the other hand, met many transgender people and gay, intersex and two spirit people who have been harassed, subjected to physical violence and discrimination. And contrary to what some on this thread argue, gay people do very much see their cause aligned with the trans community, hence the acronym LGBTQIA+ (in canada including 2 for two spirit). I think the community themselves would be best placed to decide if the causes align, not heterosexual women.

Something either exists or it doesn't...but people whon have changed sex are not one of those things that exist, no matter how they feel, or what they would like in their fantasy scenario,

Private feelings are just that...we all have them....but we also exist in a world which is ordered in certain ways according to measurable reality.....and currently we have single sex spaces and provisions in order to give women dignity, fairness and protection.

Those with trans identities can campaign for their own provisions just as women have done for theirs. You cannot call yourself a feminist if you don't care about the dignity of women or respect their needs.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 07:54

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 20:55

For anyone still in doubt and unable to respond to questions and instead just accusing me of flip flopping here are my views clearly stated:

I believe that transgender people should be allowed to exist and to have safe spaces. I do not think it is safe (or dignified as Trump would also say) for transgender women to have to use men’s toilets.

i believe transgender people should have the right to hormone therapy when they are of age (not before 18)

I think there should be a third category for sporting events

for all of you of of different views I have some questions:

  • what toilets do you want transgender women to use?
  • do you think that transgender people should be allowed to exist at all?
  • what would you say to your child if they came home and said they wanted to identify as their non-biological gender?

Transgender people exist, always have, and always will. You can’t control that. You may not like it, but you can’t stop other people from dressing as they please and having hormone therapy or surgery if they want. Not unless you want to make being transgender illegal? Throw them in prison? Is that what you want?

so as these people exist we need to find a way where they can be safe and where women can be safe too. I don’t think that’s too hard, if you cut through all the noise and exaggerated panic.

In my 44 years of life, living in three countries and meeting peoples from all walks of life, I have never ever been molested or bothered in any way shape or from by a trans person. I have, on the other hand, met many transgender people and gay, intersex and two spirit people who have been harassed, subjected to physical violence and discrimination. And contrary to what some on this thread argue, gay people do very much see their cause aligned with the trans community, hence the acronym LGBTQIA+ (in canada including 2 for two spirit). I think the community themselves would be best placed to decide if the causes align, not heterosexual women.

Simply repeating what you believe will convince no-one here to change what they know to be true. What you have to come to terms with is that your belief system is yours...it is not universally held or accepted. Far from it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 07:58

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 20:59

So then we agree don’t we? I already dad I think there should be unisex toilets AND men and women’s toilets. Problem solved.

My other point though is that if someone has transitioned to be a woman and fully presents as one, how would you then keep them out of women’s toilets, if you can’t tell by looking at them that they’re transgender?

You asked this yesterday, and I for one responded with a solution. Keeping asking the same question and expecting a different response each time is pointless.

Nobody can 'transition to a woman' if they are male. What you are talking about is manipulating one's social presentation based on gender norms and setereotypes...but that is not what makes one a woman. A woman is an adult human FEMALE. Sex matters.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 08:01

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:14

because they don’t want to? because it’s not a physical characteristic to be gay?

Edited

Being trans is not a physical characterisatic either, it is an mental/emotional one.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 08:04

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:22

Many women - I’m not sure the majority of women is against transwomen using women’s toilets. I for one don’t care at all. I haven’t met a transgender woman in the wild more than probably once in my life. And I didn’t mind her being in the same toilet as me. Your assumption is based on the idea that most women are scared of transwomen. Why would they be?

(for anyone about to jump on this I know a lot of gay and transgender people through a specific area of my life and so I hang out with them at times and then it’s usually at gay bars or places with mixed sex toilets)

I don’t want ONLY mixed sex toilets and men-men being in that space all the time.

I come across men presenting as women fairly frequently 'in the wild' where I live. I'm not "scared" of them, but I do recognise they are male; and quite often presenting in clearly fetishistic ways.

I don't want any male person in women's single sex spaces because they are spaces that provide and cater to the inherent dignity and privacy of the female sex. I don't want the male gaze in any of these spaces - and i respect other women's dignity and right to that space too.

Shortshriftandlethal · 23/01/2025 08:07

leftorrightnow · 22/01/2025 21:23

Oooookay? So the communities mixing and marching together at pride for example, or having a joint acronym and joint rights organizations is made up by…whom exactly?

It is made up of those who believe in that position.

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