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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another legal case - Family sues NHS for prescribing child cross sex hormones

121 replies

TheRozzers · 22/12/2024 09:14

Looks like an important case.

PSHE Brighton nails the issue in this quote:

“A <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/ioSTS/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/01/autistic-trans-teenager-must-not-be-prescribed-hormones/" rel="nofollow" target="blank">pipeline of vulnerable, traumatised, often autisticc and same-sex attracted children in Brighton and Hove being fast tracked for irreversible sex-change treatment”.

archive.ph/2024.12.22-072840/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/22/nhs-faces-high-court-legal-fight-over-cross-sex-hormones/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
WithSilverBells · 01/08/2025 22:20

ArabellaScott · 25/07/2025 09:02

Here's a recent interview with Sam Hall, in which she talks a lot about 'patient autonomy', what she calls 'informed consent', hormone prescriptions, and children.

I've transcribed excerpts below, edited from the Youtube Transcript, there may still be a few errors. Bold mine and italicised comments in brackets mine:

'I've got a lot of fingers in quite a few pies'

'...we've gone from 60 patients in 2019 to 2 and a half thousand patients in
2025. And that has been facilitated by NHS Sussex funding this care '
...
'the premise of informed consent is that this isn't about you having an assessment to see if you're trans. It's about you coming to us and telling us what's going on for you, what's uncomfortable for you, what you need to mitigate that discomfort, and how we can best help you keep your body safe'
...
[Interviewer, a trans identifying male: 'we know what's best for our bodies. We know what we want.']
...
Sam Hall: 'Absolutely'
...
'Not everyone needs hormones as I mentioned earlier, but lots of people do and they should be freely available'
...
'I think our system of health care, which it doesn't just apply to this country and the NHS, it applies to all of modern western medicine, is predicated on quite some quite patriarchal and paternalistic principles that the doctor knows best and they will decide for you what what the right thing to do is'
...

'you shouldn't have to jump through hoops. You shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone. You certainly shouldn't be psychiatrically analyzed because this is not a mental health condition. Um, and that's been shown by the World Health Organization, right, who in 2019 depth uh gender in congruence, took it out of mental health, put it in sexual health.So, we're now mentally sane, but
sexually unhealthy.'
...
' I think the problem is we're still seen as a mental health issue as people. um if
you're trans then the first thing people think is that you're mad and that that's
not going to go away very quickly.'
...
'there is a wave of fascism moving across the world and it's happening in all
kinds of guises, um, you can see it in other areas if you look, but it's, it's
reaching an almost like a nexus in trans healthcare. These bodies, our bodies are the ones that are being affected first.

And what we're seeing is a gradual withdrawal or denial or an attempt to
just stop it from happening altogether like the puberty blocker ban that we've
seen from uh after the Cass review last year. But this is all predicated on a
big fascist movement that's well funded from, uh, far right-wing evangelical
Christians. But we know - we can see where the money's coming from. We know which countries are contributing most, um, um, heavily financially to this wave of fascism.'
...
'for the last five years I've been with the full knowledge of everybody in the
system, I've been treating 16 and over' [no mention of under 13 year olds here]

' ...if I am driven to a position where I'm forced to discriminate against trans kids, that is a moral injury to me, which is really quite significant and psychologically harmful.'

'I feel morally compromised to the point where it's made me unwell [unwell in what way is not explained. Hall has previously talked about her mental health problems in interviews, see: archive.ph/HwNMi] and I don't know how we resolve this other than protecting trans kids and finding a way to look after them despite the fact that we are being threatened if we don't stop'

' This isn't about people being hateful. It's about people falling into a trap of, 'oh, but the children, save them from permanent damage'. They are wanting to do an investigation now on all the children on our books, uh, to find them, to write to them and tell them they can't have this treatment or service from wellbn anymore. To tell the public that wellbn will no longer be treating trans kids and to manage them off of their treatment, assisted withdrawal they're calling it'
...
'what goes on in that clinic is multiple psychological assessments. Like trans kids are being treated like some curiosity that need to be examined with a microscope. And this is really vile'
...
'...focusing on the kids is absolutely the thing to do. You know we were all trans kids once whether we knew it or not. Many of us did know it and suffered
because of it. Some of us didn't know it, but ultimately these youngsters who
are coming out today are doing it because we've created space for them to
do it and language for them to use. And we cannot possibly any of us, as trans
people, or our cis allies allow these children to be harmed. And what's happening right now are attempts to harm them.'

Noting another interview here:

https://managementinpractice.com/views/becoming-a-different-kind-of-doctor-my-trans-story/

'A number of baseless accusations resulted in me (and my GP trainer) being singled out for scrutiny by the hierarchy in post-graduate medical training. Intrusive questions were asked and comments made about my suitability to train as a GP. Getting into the GP Vocational Training Scheme was easy, since it is a merit-based system that does not discriminate, but once I was in training a different attitude emerged.
This has its roots in the pathologization of trans people. Gender dysphoria was, until 2019, internationally classified as a mental health condition, much in the same way homosexuality was until late in the last century. Trans and non-binary people are not sick. We just are.'

17.03: Interesting to watch her struggle to switch the word 'mother' to 'parent' when talking about Victoria Gillick. That's the ideology, right there

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 02/08/2025 03:59

ArabellaScott · 31/07/2025 19:56

I'll archive and download the video.

Transcript again here: '... what we're seeing is systemic discrimination against trans kids in particular, trans people in general, but trans kids are, you know, are like the litmus paper for how bad this is. And of course, as trans people running a trans health care service, we're not going to discriminate against them because they're under 18. They're still trans. They still need health care. Uh, the system is discriminating by saying that they will fund it for 18 and over, but we're using that money to look after everybody. And why would we not? '

How to report NHS fraud:
https://reportfraud.cfa.nhs.uk/

Admission of defrauding the NHS:
s

She should be struck off.

NHS Counter Fraud Authority online fraud and corruption reporting tool

For reporting fraud within the NHS.

https://reportfraud.cfa.nhs.uk

ArabellaScott · 02/08/2025 07:36

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 02/08/2025 03:59

How to report NHS fraud:
https://reportfraud.cfa.nhs.uk/

Admission of defrauding the NHS:
s

She should be struck off.

That link needs to go to whomever is investigating the clinic, doesn't it? Anyone know who that would be?

BonfireLady · 02/08/2025 07:41

spero2 · 01/08/2025 19:50

i hadn't been following this at all so thanks very much for the thread; very illuminating.

As a sad post script to the O v P case - child and father had been lying to the court the whole time, the father had got testosterone for his daughter during court proceedings (5) Lying to the court to trans a child - by Sarah Phillimore

OMG. My blood ran cold when I saw this comment.

That poor mum. She has fought so hard for her child. The heartache she must have felt when she found out she'd been deceived 😢💔

I had somehow managed to miss this and was feeling optimistic that this mum was breaking new ground. Optimistic too for her daughter. It's so sad that the daughter was already being harmed all along. I hope that dad hangs his head in shame when the full scale of this medical scandal comes to light. His ex-wife was trying to tell him and he didn't want to listen.

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · 02/08/2025 14:14

ArabellaScott · 02/08/2025 07:36

That link needs to go to whomever is investigating the clinic, doesn't it? Anyone know who that would be?

The NHS invites anyone, absolutely anyone, at any time, to report fraud to the Counter Fraud Authority. That is how they usually catch staff who steal NHS property and sell it on eBay.

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2025 21:30

Adding this new info:

https://archive.ph/BOQnp

'....Dr Sam Hall’s recent replacement.

“Dr. Laura Marshal Mattthews has quickly become a vital ally to our community, stepping in to protect our children by taking on prescribing responsibilities and bravely standing her ground against the ICB [NHS Sussex].”

This summer NHS Sussex ICB launched an investigation into WellBN for continuing to prescribe puberty blockers and hormones to their existing (Pre-puberty blocker ban) under-18 trans patients,...

Fern does however have great admiration for Dr Laura Marshall Matthews ability to continue treating these patients under very difficult circumstances.

Fern says “ She is only human, and at times it’s clear she has been overwhelmed, not because she lacks ability, but because she has faced the traumatic realities families have shared and the immense complexity of trans healthcare while learning at pace.”'

This from 'lournalist' Sophie Molly,

'I thought the online meetings would be private and secure – they were not! I was able to find the email to request access on an NHS Sussex webpage. A link to join the meetings was emailed to me with no questions asked as to who I was.
I understand parents were informed no journalists would be present, but the meeting’s organisers cannot possibly have known this and I was given no official guidance that this was a closed meeting or subject to reporting restrictions.'

https://archive.ph/7A4Yx

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 21/12/2025 22:18

stickygotstuck · 30/05/2025 08:47

True.

There are also people diagnosed with ASD/ASC who feel more comfortable describing it as Asperger's, because the umbrella term is unclear and they are a world apart from people with more severe autism. Both they and the families of the latter often feel that way.

I think a new term will be introduced at some point. And Wing-Frith, as @AmaryllisNightAndDay says, may be a good candidate.

"Wing-Frith Syndrome" would be a fantastic term for the high-masking presentation typical of autistic women and girls.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/12/2025 22:32

That oh so sweet, reasonable voice of this doctor. Apparently there is a heavily funded far right fascist movement seeking to overturn world best practice trans ‘health care’ for children. You can see the doctor speaking on video clip.

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2025 22:47

ScrollingLeaves · 21/12/2025 22:32

That oh so sweet, reasonable voice of this doctor. Apparently there is a heavily funded far right fascist movement seeking to overturn world best practice trans ‘health care’ for children. You can see the doctor speaking on video clip.

Oh, dear.

Storyhousenamechange · 22/12/2025 05:54

ScrollingLeaves · 21/12/2025 22:32

That oh so sweet, reasonable voice of this doctor. Apparently there is a heavily funded far right fascist movement seeking to overturn world best practice trans ‘health care’ for children. You can see the doctor speaking on video clip.

I don't disagree with "heavily funded far right fascist campaign" to be honest (well, apart from "far-right" and "fascist" being tautological).

Funding of court cases by conservative Christian groups is the part of this that I'm really uncomfortable with, as my outlook doesn't align with theirs anywhere else. Same for GB news, alt-right commentators. It does still make me stop myself sometimes and ask myself if I haven't got this completely wrong, given the ideological company I'm keeping.

I give my head a shake of course but I really don't think it helps the British feminist GC cause to be associated with people who are coming at this from a homophobic, anti-feminist, gender stereotype standpoint. If I were on the "trans side" I'd be pushing this narrative too. For those who aren't following this closely, instinctively would you want to be on the side of Trump and GB news?

I do sometimes run through in my head what would I do if I wanted to go to an Employment Tribunal, and the only way I could do it would be to be funded by Christian Concern money. Would I still do it?

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2025 08:00

What, like the Christian nurse and the paedophile? That story? I'm pretty comfortable taking her side over his.

Anyway, no hatm in checking one's own bias and judgement. Should be done frequently.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/12/2025 08:18

Well, I never saw this as a left-right issue myself, or a religious-secular issue either, or a broadly conserative-pogressive issue. There are people on all sides of this who are pro-transition and anti-transition. "We'll fix this effeminate boy by turning him into a girl so he - oops she - wont grow up to be a sinful homosexual man" is an argument in some fundamentalist religious circles as well.

I would expect to find support for from many different political perspectives, including some that I powerfully disagree with, even about sex and gender conformity. And when people on any side of left-right, religious-secular or conservative-progressive decide that everyone with even the mildest gender critical arguments belongs on the opposite side then they leave an open goal for their opponents to shoot at. And I blame my own side - the lefties, secular people and progressives - for leaving the open goal.

So if a conservative Christian group are supporting the Darlington nurses or a Christan nurse correctly sexes a paedophile and the press make more fuss about the fact that she's a Christian than that he's a paedophile with a trans identity - well tough shit on us. What did you expect? I'll support the substance of the case not the guilt-by-association.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/12/2025 09:08

By the way I don't know of any actual evidence that far-right groups are heavily funding lots of gender-critical legal cases. The Darlington nurses are still having to crowdfund alongside whatever support they're getting from Christian Concern.

On the other hand a lot of trans-ideology campaigining organisations get substantial financial support from big charitable foundations and governments. And there is a huge amount of public funding going into the gender-ideology side of legal cases. The Scottish/UK taxpayer paid for all the defense in the Supreme Court FWS vs. Scottish Govt caseswhile FWS were mostly crowdfunded (with a chunk but not majority from JKR)

At the moment, in the UK "far-right Christian infuence" is still more of a bogeyman to scare good liberal-leftie secularist progressives than a real threat. But if all the liberal-leftie secularist progressive groups insist that transitioning kids and letting men into women's changing rooms is just fine then that wont last forever.

nutmeg7 · 22/12/2025 09:17

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/12/2025 08:18

Well, I never saw this as a left-right issue myself, or a religious-secular issue either, or a broadly conserative-pogressive issue. There are people on all sides of this who are pro-transition and anti-transition. "We'll fix this effeminate boy by turning him into a girl so he - oops she - wont grow up to be a sinful homosexual man" is an argument in some fundamentalist religious circles as well.

I would expect to find support for from many different political perspectives, including some that I powerfully disagree with, even about sex and gender conformity. And when people on any side of left-right, religious-secular or conservative-progressive decide that everyone with even the mildest gender critical arguments belongs on the opposite side then they leave an open goal for their opponents to shoot at. And I blame my own side - the lefties, secular people and progressives - for leaving the open goal.

So if a conservative Christian group are supporting the Darlington nurses or a Christan nurse correctly sexes a paedophile and the press make more fuss about the fact that she's a Christian than that he's a paedophile with a trans identity - well tough shit on us. What did you expect? I'll support the substance of the case not the guilt-by-association.

Exactly.

Guilt by association muddies the waters and detracts from the substance of what is being done.

I don’t make my opinions by looking around to see who shares them and jumping on/off board accordingly. I’d rather form my own by observation, research and thinking.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/12/2025 09:36

Storyhousenamechange · 22/12/2025 05:54

I don't disagree with "heavily funded far right fascist campaign" to be honest (well, apart from "far-right" and "fascist" being tautological).

Funding of court cases by conservative Christian groups is the part of this that I'm really uncomfortable with, as my outlook doesn't align with theirs anywhere else. Same for GB news, alt-right commentators. It does still make me stop myself sometimes and ask myself if I haven't got this completely wrong, given the ideological company I'm keeping.

I give my head a shake of course but I really don't think it helps the British feminist GC cause to be associated with people who are coming at this from a homophobic, anti-feminist, gender stereotype standpoint. If I were on the "trans side" I'd be pushing this narrative too. For those who aren't following this closely, instinctively would you want to be on the side of Trump and GB news?

I do sometimes run through in my head what would I do if I wanted to go to an Employment Tribunal, and the only way I could do it would be to be funded by Christian Concern money. Would I still do it?

I agree that it is a useful narrative for transactivists to push. It is a shame people like the Liberal Democrats, the Greens, Labour (and even many Conservatives) fall for it, stop thinking for themselves and lean towards a trans propaganda stance for fear of seeming right wing. Maimonides said wisely that we should recognise the truth wherever it comes from. Not that opposing this cult just comes from Trump and American Evangelical Christians.

People who have nothing to do them have been aware of and troubled by the transgender queer theory trend before they were. And it is actually the doctor here who is him/herself the tool or mouthpiece of an authoritarian agenda driving an ideology.

Doctors like this one in Brighton, pushing through treatments on children without sound psychological prior exploration, who may well effectively be the homophobic ones.

Many GC women who are not right wing have funded recent U.K. court cases and JK Rowling is a special example As for those cases funded by Christians they are fewer, but when they are, that does not make any case more or less legitimate.

This ‘GC is fascist’ narrative is so far off the truth, and so offensive, somehow implying (if we think of the case in the OP) that a parent not wanting their child to get caught up in the hands of a doctor like this, is someone under the cosh of fascists.

edited to add Conservatives.

BundleBoogie · 22/12/2025 13:53

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2025 21:30

Adding this new info:

https://archive.ph/BOQnp

'....Dr Sam Hall’s recent replacement.

“Dr. Laura Marshal Mattthews has quickly become a vital ally to our community, stepping in to protect our children by taking on prescribing responsibilities and bravely standing her ground against the ICB [NHS Sussex].”

This summer NHS Sussex ICB launched an investigation into WellBN for continuing to prescribe puberty blockers and hormones to their existing (Pre-puberty blocker ban) under-18 trans patients,...

Fern does however have great admiration for Dr Laura Marshall Matthews ability to continue treating these patients under very difficult circumstances.

Fern says “ She is only human, and at times it’s clear she has been overwhelmed, not because she lacks ability, but because she has faced the traumatic realities families have shared and the immense complexity of trans healthcare while learning at pace.”'

This from 'lournalist' Sophie Molly,

'I thought the online meetings would be private and secure – they were not! I was able to find the email to request access on an NHS Sussex webpage. A link to join the meetings was emailed to me with no questions asked as to who I was.
I understand parents were informed no journalists would be present, but the meeting’s organisers cannot possibly have known this and I was given no official guidance that this was a closed meeting or subject to reporting restrictions.'

https://archive.ph/7A4Yx

Edited

From ‘Sophie’s’ article

I thought the online meetings would be private and secure – they were not! I was able to find the email to request access on an NHS Sussex webpage. A link to join the meetings was emailed to me with no questions asked as to who I was.
I understand parents were informed no journalists would be present, but the meeting’s organisers cannot possibly have known this and I was given no official guidance that this was a closed meeting or subject to reporting restrictions.

Oh wow! So it didn’t occur to him that a private meeting between the NHS and parents about their child might be… ‘private’?? And not for him to barge in and share online the discussions he heard? Absolutely bonkers - I mean we know he has little concept of boundaries but this is extreme surely?

BundleBoogie · 22/12/2025 14:00

Storyhousenamechange · 22/12/2025 05:54

I don't disagree with "heavily funded far right fascist campaign" to be honest (well, apart from "far-right" and "fascist" being tautological).

Funding of court cases by conservative Christian groups is the part of this that I'm really uncomfortable with, as my outlook doesn't align with theirs anywhere else. Same for GB news, alt-right commentators. It does still make me stop myself sometimes and ask myself if I haven't got this completely wrong, given the ideological company I'm keeping.

I give my head a shake of course but I really don't think it helps the British feminist GC cause to be associated with people who are coming at this from a homophobic, anti-feminist, gender stereotype standpoint. If I were on the "trans side" I'd be pushing this narrative too. For those who aren't following this closely, instinctively would you want to be on the side of Trump and GB news?

I do sometimes run through in my head what would I do if I wanted to go to an Employment Tribunal, and the only way I could do it would be to be funded by Christian Concern money. Would I still do it?

The truth is the truth though. It doesn’t matter if you dislike the truth teller or what you perceive to be their motivations - the facts remain the same.

Accusations of ‘right wing’ and ‘fascist’ are just desperate attempts to shut down and discredit women talking about our rights. It’s all they’ve got though as the truth is not on the side of the accusers. They are wrong.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 22/12/2025 16:25

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 22/12/2025 09:08

By the way I don't know of any actual evidence that far-right groups are heavily funding lots of gender-critical legal cases. The Darlington nurses are still having to crowdfund alongside whatever support they're getting from Christian Concern.

On the other hand a lot of trans-ideology campaigining organisations get substantial financial support from big charitable foundations and governments. And there is a huge amount of public funding going into the gender-ideology side of legal cases. The Scottish/UK taxpayer paid for all the defense in the Supreme Court FWS vs. Scottish Govt caseswhile FWS were mostly crowdfunded (with a chunk but not majority from JKR)

At the moment, in the UK "far-right Christian infuence" is still more of a bogeyman to scare good liberal-leftie secularist progressives than a real threat. But if all the liberal-leftie secularist progressive groups insist that transitioning kids and letting men into women's changing rooms is just fine then that wont last forever.

The Darlington nurses are still having to crowdfund alongside whatever support they're getting from Christian Concern.

I had not realised. Thank you for tipping me off.

Storyhousenamechange · 31/12/2025 15:13

BundleBoogie · 22/12/2025 14:00

The truth is the truth though. It doesn’t matter if you dislike the truth teller or what you perceive to be their motivations - the facts remain the same.

Accusations of ‘right wing’ and ‘fascist’ are just desperate attempts to shut down and discredit women talking about our rights. It’s all they’ve got though as the truth is not on the side of the accusers. They are wrong.

I know this is deviating from the thread a little but I wanted to take a little time for the responses to my "fascist funding" comment to percolate through my subconscious over Christmas.

I've read and re-read with an open mind and am really listening.

I think what you said Bundle is really interesting. The truth is the truth but I do think it matters if you get there a different way. I am gender critical for a number of reasons which will be familiar to those on this board. But I think that there will be others who says that TWAnotW because they don't like people who are different.

So I think it does matter where we start from. I am a proper liberal wishy-washy do-gooder who believes that TIM are not women. Mainly because I'm a feminist. But there are people who don't believe TIM are women because they don't like TIM (or gay people, or immigrants or lots of other people).

I am not used to being on the same side as people I would view as bigoted and when I find myself watching the Sandie Peggie news on GB News it makes me double take.

I may be completely overthinking this but equally there is so much amazing thinking on this board if be very grateful if someone else could articulate what I'm trying to say and psycho analyse me. 😁

I find this all fascinating and will continue to mull it over while I draft my response to the girl guiding email.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/12/2025 19:32

Storyhousenamechange · 31/12/2025 15:13

I know this is deviating from the thread a little but I wanted to take a little time for the responses to my "fascist funding" comment to percolate through my subconscious over Christmas.

I've read and re-read with an open mind and am really listening.

I think what you said Bundle is really interesting. The truth is the truth but I do think it matters if you get there a different way. I am gender critical for a number of reasons which will be familiar to those on this board. But I think that there will be others who says that TWAnotW because they don't like people who are different.

So I think it does matter where we start from. I am a proper liberal wishy-washy do-gooder who believes that TIM are not women. Mainly because I'm a feminist. But there are people who don't believe TIM are women because they don't like TIM (or gay people, or immigrants or lots of other people).

I am not used to being on the same side as people I would view as bigoted and when I find myself watching the Sandie Peggie news on GB News it makes me double take.

I may be completely overthinking this but equally there is so much amazing thinking on this board if be very grateful if someone else could articulate what I'm trying to say and psycho analyse me. 😁

I find this all fascinating and will continue to mull it over while I draft my response to the girl guiding email.

But there are people who don't believe TIM are women because they don't like TIM (or gay people, or immigrants or lots of other people).

Ye-es, kind of, there certainly are people who believe everyone should be nicely gender conforming and who get very offended when they're not. But that has nothing to do with whether they think TIM are "really" men or women. In fact quite a lot of right-wing and homophobic people who are big into gender conformity and don't like people people being "different" are actually very happy with the TWAW narrative. For them it neatly solves the problem of butch women and effeminate men - they can just decide that butch women are "really" men and that effeminate men are "really" women. For them it's a bit of surgery, a few hormones, and wrongness is solved.

Gender ideology can work just as nicely for narrow-minded rightwing homophobes as it can for woolly liberals. So you do really need to look at the facts and not at the company they're keeping. And we need feminism to centre women in all this, so as not to let women get pushed aside either way by left or rgiht wing.

That's why the UK is "TERF Island" - for instance women here don't have to choose between reproductive rights and sex-based rights. Very unlike the US where you can't e.g. stop the organisations that transition teenagers without attacking one of the main providers of contraception (Planned Parenthood). But a lot of the rhetoric is imported from the US, and especially rhetoric about right-wing/Christian groups.

America is quite a religious country and if you're interested in what American churches really think, listen to Cory Cohn from about 18 minutes in.

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