Another legal case - Family sues NHS for prescribing child cross sex hormones

[TheRozzers]

Looks like an important case.

PSHE Brighton nails the issue in this quote:

“A <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/ioSTS/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/01/autistic-trans-teenager-must-not-be-prescribed-hormones/" rel="nofollow" target="blank">pipeline of vulnerable, traumatised, often autisticc and same-sex attracted children in Brighton and Hove being fast tracked for irreversible sex-change treatment”.

archive.ph/2024.12.22-072840/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/12/22/nhs-faces-high-court-legal-fight-over-cross-sex-hormones/

Looking at the totals, there are definitely children under 13 involved in this mess.

What have they done.

This. By doctors. Satisfying a narcissistic impulse to affirm their beliefs and validate their life choices (as adults) whilst ‘being kind’. The latter, I kind of get. Especially as women are so thoroughly socially conditioned into being kind.

But again… as doctors. Those poor poor children. Harmed by the very adults whose role was to protect them.

When, just when will transgenderism finally be known for the devastation it’s caused for children and young people as well as all the negative impacts on women?

Many TM who’ve taken testosterone for a long time do look like short men because we’re so conditioned to think ‘male’ when we see beards, male pattern baldness, etc. This rarely happens for TW who rely on lipstick, dresses and long hair.

When, just when will transgenderism finally be known for the devastation it’s caused for children and young people as well as all the negative impacts on women?

The reckoning on this is definitely coming. But it's a slow burn until we get to that tipping point - and this means more of its future victims are yet to start any medication.

In ten years (or hopefully fewer) we'll have the inevitable "if we knew then what we know now". There will be a nod to those who raised the alarm but collective denial that it would have been possible to know that this was wrong. Far too many Be Kind people will choose to protect their own egos instead of admitting they got it wrong.

and this means more of its future victims are yet to start any medication.

Agree @BonfireLady but this ^ is a depressing thought.

Here's a recent interview with Sam Hall, in which she talks a lot about 'patient autonomy', what she calls 'informed consent', hormone prescriptions, and children.

I've transcribed excerpts below, edited from the Youtube Transcript, there may still be a few errors. Bold mine and italicised comments in brackets mine:

'I've got a lot of fingers in quite a few pies'

'...we've gone from 60 patients in 2019 to 2 and a half thousand patients in
2025. And that has been facilitated by NHS Sussex funding this care '
...
'the premise of informed consent is that this isn't about you having an assessment to see if you're trans. It's about you coming to us and telling us what's going on for you, what's uncomfortable for you, what you need to mitigate that discomfort, and how we can best help you keep your body safe'
...
[Interviewer, a trans identifying male: 'we know what's best for our bodies. We know what we want.']
...
Sam Hall: 'Absolutely'
...
'Not everyone needs hormones as I mentioned earlier, but lots of people do and they should be freely available'
...
'I think our system of health care, which it doesn't just apply to this country and the NHS, it applies to all of modern western medicine, is predicated on quite some quite patriarchal and paternalistic principles that the doctor knows best and they will decide for you what what the right thing to do is'
...

'you shouldn't have to jump through hoops. You shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone. You certainly shouldn't be psychiatrically analyzed because this is not a mental health condition. Um, and that's been shown by the World Health Organization, right, who in 2019 depth uh gender in congruence, took it out of mental health, put it in sexual health.So, we're now mentally sane, but
sexually unhealthy.'
...
' I think the problem is we're still seen as a mental health issue as people. um if
you're trans then the first thing people think is that you're mad and that that's
not going to go away very quickly.'
...
'there is a wave of fascism moving across the world and it's happening in all
kinds of guises, um, you can see it in other areas if you look, but it's, it's
reaching an almost like a nexus in trans healthcare. These bodies, our bodies are the ones that are being affected first.

And what we're seeing is a gradual withdrawal or denial or an attempt to
just stop it from happening altogether like the puberty blocker ban that we've
seen from uh after the Cass review last year. But this is all predicated on a
big fascist movement that's well funded from, uh, far right-wing evangelical
Christians. But we know - we can see where the money's coming from. We know which countries are contributing most, um, um, heavily financially to this wave of fascism.'
...
'for the last five years I've been with the full knowledge of everybody in the
system, I've been treating 16 and over' [no mention of under 13 year olds here]

' ...if I am driven to a position where I'm forced to discriminate against trans kids, that is a moral injury to me, which is really quite significant and psychologically harmful.'

'I feel morally compromised to the point where it's made me unwell [unwell in what way is not explained. Hall has previously talked about her mental health problems in interviews, see: archive.ph/HwNMi] and I don't know how we resolve this other than protecting trans kids and finding a way to look after them despite the fact that we are being threatened if we don't stop'

' This isn't about people being hateful. It's about people falling into a trap of, 'oh, but the children, save them from permanent damage'. They are wanting to do an investigation now on all the children on our books, uh, to find them, to write to them and tell them they can't have this treatment or service from wellbn anymore. To tell the public that wellbn will no longer be treating trans kids and to manage them off of their treatment, assisted withdrawal they're calling it'
...
'what goes on in that clinic is multiple psychological assessments. Like trans kids are being treated like some curiosity that need to be examined with a microscope. And this is really vile'
...
'...focusing on the kids is absolutely the thing to do. You know we were all trans kids once whether we knew it or not. Many of us did know it and suffered
because of it. Some of us didn't know it, but ultimately these youngsters who
are coming out today are doing it because we've created space for them to
do it and language for them to use. And we cannot possibly any of us, as trans
people, or our cis allies allow these children to be harmed. And what's happening right now are attempts to harm them.'

Noting another interview here:

https://managementinpractice.com/views/becoming-a-different-kind-of-doctor-my-trans-story/

'A number of baseless accusations resulted in me (and my GP trainer) being singled out for scrutiny by the hierarchy in post-graduate medical training. Intrusive questions were asked and comments made about my suitability to train as a GP. Getting into the GP Vocational Training Scheme was easy, since it is a merit-based system that does not discriminate, but once I was in training a different attitude emerged.
This has its roots in the pathologization of trans people. Gender dysphoria was, until 2019, internationally classified as a mental health condition, much in the same way homosexuality was until late in the last century. Trans and non-binary people are not sick. We just are.'

One of the comments on the interview:

'18.36: Talks about breaking the practice's commissioning agreement terms and conditions, to divert money to under 18s. Ie breach of contract with the health authority.'

'you shouldn't have to jump through hoops. You shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone. You certainly shouldn't be psychiatrically analyzed because this is not a mental health condition. Um, and that's been shown by the World Health Organization, right, who in 2019 depth uh gender in congruence, took it out of mental health, put it in sexual health.So, we're now mentally sane, but
sexually unhealthy.'

I'd love someone to explain what sort of sexual health condition this is. Sam thinks that some children are 'sexually unhealthy'. What on earth does that mean?

And how is thinking that there is something wrong with your healthy body not a mental health condition?

https://managementinpractice.com/views/blogs/feeling-visible-for-the-first-time-my-trans-story/

'Ten years later, when as a GP a baseless safeguarding alert was raised against me involving a child, I finally understood the full extent of the prejudice I faced. Like gay men, having to deal with Section 28 of the Local Government Act 1988, which stated that local authorities and schools could not ‘promote homosexuality’, I was seen as a risk to children. Newborn babies were regarded as unsafe in my presence.
The impact of these veiled judgements had a devastating effect on my mental health. I have struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts for years, and in a large part I attribute this to those unspoken assumptions that follow all transgender people, but especially, and especially wrongly, trans women.'

Article from 2022.

Indeed. I'd like the WHO to explain that.

Standard NHS practice is to redact numbers of 5 or below. It is terrifying that at least 4 of these drugs have been given to under 13 year olds.

This thread demonstrates why some adults caught up in queer theory political activism lose all sight of their professional responsibilities and the need to safeguard children. The comments quoted above show a shocking lack of insight and awareness of professional responsibilities.
As we're seeing in a very public way this week, some adults are so wrapped up in their self interests and activism they render themselves professionally incompetent and display too many aspect of professional dangerousness.

This 100%.

Hall is a zealot who has lost all objectivity.

Diagnostic manuals are first and foremost political manuals. They are the outcome of discussions amongst clinicians, researchers and others with vested interests. Of course, for most conditions those discussions may be limited to the best treatment between a range of reasonable options. But it would be incredibly naive to think that lobbyists aren’t heavily involved especially in things like trans.

The comment at 18:36 is an admission of fraud- I hope the ICB & the police are aware of that video.

You shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone.

Why not? Is there any other kind of healthcare where you don't have to explain yourself to access it? Where HCPs do not have a duty to refuse you if they believe that the treatment you are requesting is inappropriate? Even professional body-modification practitioners (eg tattoo artists and piercing artists) have a code of conduct where they are expected to ensure that the client is 18+, is certain about what they want, is fully informed, and understands the possible repercussions of the body mod.

Does he really expect HCPs to work to lower standards for trans-IDing people?

I don't actually know whether Sam is female or male.

Female

I could, I would edit my post to use accurate pronouns.

This is why the NHS has acted - evidence of harm https://segm.org/UK-cross-sex-hormones-restriction

I'll archive and download the video.

Transcript again here: '... what we're seeing is systemic discrimination against trans kids in particular, trans people in general, but trans kids are, you know, are like the litmus paper for how bad this is. And of course, as trans people running a trans health care service, we're not going to discriminate against them because they're under 18. They're still trans. They still need health care. Uh, the system is discriminating by saying that they will fund it for 18 and over, but we're using that money to look after everybody. And why would we not? '

'Research showed trans women (“natal males”) have a substantially higher risk of ischemic stroke, venous thromboembolism (VTE) – which includes deep vein thrombosis and pulmonary embolism – and heart attacks. After eight years of oestrogen use, for every 1,000 people 16.7 more trans women would be expected to have VTE than in a group of biological males who had not transitioned; the figure is 13.7 more per 1,000 when compared to biological women. Studies have also suggested that females who take testosterone, have an increased risk of heart attacks.'

"...the outlined additional danger of starting hormone treatments while still in childhood. “If the treatment is started in young years, many years with daily treatment with cross sex hormones will increase the risk of cardiovascular disease… and stroke… [and] can decrease fertility, impair liver function and increase the risk of cancer in both genders,” hormone expert Dahlgren wrote. She also noted the lack of long-term data: “The consequences of prescribing cross sex hormones in individuals under the age of 18 years are that the body and the brain are permanently marked/changed with both known and more unforeseen consequences.”

As well as bringing about the physical changes the young person wants, testosterone use can – she says – impact on bone mineral density, the heart and “several structures of the brain”. The treatment will, “in other words influence processing, emotions, consolidation of information and spatial memory”. Female sexual function is also affected, while oestrogen use in males impairs sperm quality, and thus, fertility. “The risks of [cross-sex hormone] treatment are greater if treatment commences prior to the conclusion of puberty,” Dahlgren argued. Hormone use accelerates bone maturation, meaning that if a child hasn’t completed puberty, but takes hormones, it will “accelerate the bone age”, and contribute to a shorter adult height."

“unsafe and irresponsible”

I briefly worked with Dr Hall during his GP training. Had the impression of an unusually sensitive, intelligent and pleasant, possibly gay, man. Capable doctor, good communicator. Possibly a bit of positive bias because I knew he had previously been an anaesthetic consultant. No idea he was trans.

I think basically, ideology without evidence can cause doctors, even good and caring doctors, to do harm. Sometimes profound harm. This seems to be particularly true in psychiatry -medical treatments for emotional / psychological distress.

Agree with previous poster, the ironically uncritical adoption and endorsement of critical theory, which bypasses the need for any evidence and elevates "lived experience", particularly of minorities, above all other considerations, seems to be behind a lot of this thinking. It comes across so clearly in Dr Hall's interview.

I find it so strange to see Dr Hall, whom in my experience was a sensible and capable doctor, describe having an assessment before commencing serious medical treatment with risks and side effects, as "not okay". Is it healthcare or isn't it?

How can something not be healthcare, in terms of apparently not requiring any assessment by medical professionals (in fact, this assessment actually being considered unacceptable as a concept) & not being categorised as an illness at all; yet, at the same time be termed as healthcare, in terms of universal access to medical treatments with medical effects?

Talking about how someone shouldn't need to "explain themselves" or be "psychiatrically analysed" when they request medical treatment for emotional distress... This is a dangerous position for a doctor. It's ideologically driven.

I also can't help but notice the stigma directed at psychiatric conditions. Having a psychiatric problem does not equate to being "mad". It's not a lesser or terrible thing to have a psychiatric problem.

Sad to see Dr Hall in this position. The safety of children has to be put first, though.

It’s a tricky situation. To paraphrase Douglas Adam:

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with treating governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those doctors people who must want to prescribe cross sex hormones rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.

To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made in charge of a gender clinic President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

The problem is ideologues. Tavistock was entirely captured by ideologues but the smaller centres around the UK and the popping up of for profit private clinics is surely not the answer either. None of them seem sensibly managed or following Cass.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpdjnz6ngd9o

i hadn't been following this at all so thanks very much for the thread; very illuminating.

As a sad post script to the O v P case - child and father had been lying to the court the whole time, the father had got testosterone for his daughter during court proceedings (5) Lying to the court to trans a child - by Sarah Phillimore