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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

465 replies

Ingenieur · 18/11/2024 09:33

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

OP posts:
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Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 13:16

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Indeed. It's quite instructive to learn what some people consider what the reasonable middle ground consists of, such that they feel it is quite justified for them to scold non-believers for being too extreme and antagonistic. What on earth would they consider the properly Righteous position to be??

NecessaryScene · 20/11/2024 13:17

"2" seems to be a bizarrely difficult number for some people to get their heads around.

Somehow they have no problem with their being 1, and exactly 1, human species. There could be more, but there is currently 1.

And like all remotely related species, this 1 species has 2 sexes. There are no other reproductive roles in any mammals.

Why are we disputing the number of sexes we are ("sex isn't binary") while not disputing the number of species we are?

(Indeed, I think a lot of the "sex isn't binary" crowd would be immensely offended by any attempt to suggest there isn't exactly 1 human species. Oddly inconsistent illogical thinking).

It's possible there's some underlying mott & bailey type deeper point from the use of "binary" - I've seen reasonable arguments about sex not being binary.

But even if not "binary", we still have 2 and only 2 sexes.

perseus-and-medusa

A Note on ‘Smashing the Binary’

“All western culture rests on the murder of the mother.” Luce Irigaray As many of us have observed recently, trans ideology – and its associated arguments and rhetoric – is what we might call a ‘sc…

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/10/01/a-note-on-smashing-the-binary/

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:20

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Well, they try and frame it as letting the child find their authentic self as a cover for what they are supporting/promoting.

I heard an interesting point about someone wearing garments that had traditional significance for other groups of people. Now people can wear what they want. However, if they think it means they are part of, or connected to, that other group by donning the garb they are really living in a virtual reality. And, the donning of the symbolic traditional garb does not mean they will ever be authentically part of that group.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 13:20

She's not backing down despite the unhinged loons posting her graphic death threats:

x.com/repnancymace/status/1858974780185341958

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 13:21

Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 13:16

Indeed. It's quite instructive to learn what some people consider what the reasonable middle ground consists of, such that they feel it is quite justified for them to scold non-believers for being too extreme and antagonistic. What on earth would they consider the properly Righteous position to be??

TBF I do accept to an extent I agree with Bonfire on different audiences and different approaches.

I think 'middle ground' is a misleading thing in itself tbh.

There is no middle ground between sex being something every has regardless of how they identify and gender identity.

And that's part of the problem.

What are you transing from if you don't recognise sex?

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 13:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 13:20

She's not backing down despite the unhinged loons posting her graphic death threats:

x.com/repnancymace/status/1858974780185341958

I'm not remotely surprised.

She's created a hill.

HermioneWeasley · 20/11/2024 13:23

What they are is already pre-determined from the point of conception: they are human beings and are either male or female
That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

@PinkChesnut

nobody is deciding this for them, it is an immutable fact. People are either male or female, determined at conception and cannot be changed.

why do you think it’s better to lie to people and pretend that’s not true?

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:28

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:30

What they are is already pre-determined from the point of conception: they are human beings and are either male or female

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

They already know about medical interventions for transitioning. Telling them to ask their doctor for specifics to them is preferable to them learning it off of friends or the internet.

Is it likely you approached your daughter's gender questioning in a non-abusive or supportive way? Only she would know. I cannot imagine you were this antagonistic with her, so hopefully it was positive for her.

The Cass is an imperfect report which struggles with bias. I have seen plenty of teen girls question their gender, socially transition, and then transition back when it didn't feel authentic to them.

Some things you cannot choose, though.....that's life! The pretence that we can literally be anything we want to be is untrue. We are all born into certain sets of conditions over which we have no choice, and yet we still have to deal with the consequences of these conditions. We are not all equal in the sense that we all have different things to contend with.

Nobody can choose their sex, but what you can choose is how you express yourself. But of course, we also live in a society not as lone individuals. We also have to take into consideration other people, other groups of people and their rights, needs, desires......You cannot just do as you please regardless of everyone else......certainly not without negative consequence anyway.

You are setting a child up for disappointment and even depression if you give them false expectations about what is actually possible. The best thing you can do for a young person struggling with their identity is to help them explore the realms of the possible....also taking into account that we are social creatures and others think and believe differently to us and we will have to adapt to others if we want fruitful relationships.

We all need to adhere to some social norms if we want to live a life approximating contentment and reciprocity with others.

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:28

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently. Join the flat earthers. Mind you, at least they didn’t couch lying to children, using damaging medication, and experimental cosmetic surgery as being a kind person. Or support and push for it to be legal rather than be made the criminal offence it should be.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:31

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:33

I am comfortable referring them to their medical practioner for more information instead of going on Reddit as their sole source of advice.

By the time I am speaking to them, they already know about medical treatments.

Have you ever considered advising them to see a counsellor that is neutral and not gender affirmative? Personally think you are deeply negligent as a responsible adult if you simply go ahead and affirm these delusions that they are really the other sex, or no sex at all.

Snowypeaks · 20/11/2024 13:35

Cailleach1 · 20/11/2024 13:28

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently. Join the flat earthers. Mind you, at least they didn’t couch lying to children, using damaging medication, and experimental cosmetic surgery as being a kind person. Or support and push for it to be legal rather than be made the criminal offence it should be.

Material reality doesn’t exist for some people apparently.

It's this weird position of knowing material reality exists, but thinking they can change it by relabelling it. It's a failure to understand the fundamental properties of material reality. That it's real. And material. And therefore immune to alteration by words or philosophical belief.

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 13:38

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Sex is binary. This is a fact.

Itv is gender that is socially constructed. 'Gender' simply refers to things stereotypically associated with either sex. Gender is not the exact same thing as sex, though.

'Gender' is simply personality and character. A girl with a 'male gender identity' is simply a girl who likes stereotypical masculine activities such as football, gaming, or who most often is same sex attracted.

You do know that the both the women's and gay liberation movements fought for men and women to express who they were whilst also rejecting the imposition of gender sterotypes onto them?

Gay men are not women just because they like soft furnishings and fashion.
And men are not women just because they are erotically turned on by presenting in female clothing and imagining themselves being penetrated by a man. In fact there are some men with trans identities who say it was pornography that made them 'trans'.

HermioneWeasley · 20/11/2024 13:38

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Biological send is as binary as it gets - you are either of the sex that produces small mobile gametes (male) or large immobile gametes (female). Nobody produces medium sized sluggish gametes. If you have a medical condition which means you don’t produce gametes, have had your gamete producing kit removed or are at an age where you don’t produce gametes this does not change your sex.

Murica · 20/11/2024 13:54

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 03:20

The law was written in a vague way (purposefully) so that if you were trans and in a public place where a child could reasonably expect to be (grocery store for instance), and you displayed characteristics of the gender opposing your birth sex, you were "performing sexually."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/11/texas-transgender-ban-drag-shows-criminalize-parents.html

Actually had a friend get targeted by this legislature, he is a gay man who does drag performances clothed neck to toe, there is nothing meant to be fetishist about it more so than a Christmas panto.

Thanks. That's an opinion piece from an activist in Massachusetts though who can be quite hyperbolic. So it's not accurate to say being trans in public is illegal. In the unlikely event that a drag queen would be chosen to sing the national anthem at football game in Texas he might get his feelings hurt.

The author and Rep. Nancy Mace have met. Here's a link for those who may have missed it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_mB26uArS88

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Murica · 20/11/2024 14:10

I thought I'd add some perspective from my deep blue state where Harris won comfortably. Not everyone will tell others how they voted even in less controversial elections but of the people who have told me, a few skipped voting for president at all, a few voted third-party, a few for Trump and a few for Harris. All democrats.

Interestingly, now that I think about it, there were definitely fewer yards this year.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 14:14

The author and Rep. Nancy Mace have met. Here's a link for those who may have missed it.

Of course! She was fantastic then. And what she says about threats she's received underlines her bravery here.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 14:35

I know a 10 year old boy who has been told he can be a boy.

Everyone is being super 'nice' about it and saying how nice the parents are.

It does my head in because the girls in the class know he's a boy and we really upset by The Talk about periods last year where he was included (fuck knows why) and felt they couldn't speak. None of the parents felt they could complain (including the Muslim parents).

And what's going to happen in a couple of years time when hormones kick in? Reality that he's been sold a total lie by people being nice and he thought he could trust.

The alternative is invasive surgery on his genitals and hormones which will make his genitals shrink and require many 'genital inspections' along the road by medical professionals.

Only for him to find out he's STILL not female.

It's disgusting. It's not tolerate. It's just weak arsed parenting and care from trusted professionals who can't be honest about the fucking reality of the situation.

He has been set up for life for a fall at some point from the age of six by adults who refuse to tell the truth in the name of 'being kind' .

None of this is kind. At six he has no comprehension about any of the implications.

I think those who have enabled it - which includes friends are culpable. It's grotesque.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 14:36

And no I don't think I should dress this up in terms that are a middle ground. Not when this kid was 6 when it started.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 14:42

HermioneWeasley · 20/11/2024 13:38

Biological send is as binary as it gets - you are either of the sex that produces small mobile gametes (male) or large immobile gametes (female). Nobody produces medium sized sluggish gametes. If you have a medical condition which means you don’t produce gametes, have had your gamete producing kit removed or are at an age where you don’t produce gametes this does not change your sex.

Blunt language time.

Being sterilised and having cosmetic surgery does not change your sex.

You remain the sex you were born, regardless of any decisions you make in your life.

Biology isn't something you get a choice in.

Sue biology for unfair and see how far you get.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/11/2024 15:40

PinkChesnut · 19/11/2024 23:26

I put it in the same box as not assuming a woman is pregnant 😅

No one can stop you perceiving anyone however you perceive them. If you're asked to please refer to someone in a certain way and you don't? I personally think it reflects on your manners, but that's just me.

My experience is one of coercion. I must do as I am told, or I am a bigot and must be shunned. I don't respond well to people trying to control me.

If only any of these people who tell me I have to use language as they understand it, not as I understand it, could explain to me why their worldview is correct - but they can't or won't. Half of them refuse even to try. They just criticise my manners, and at the same time make out that it's far more serious than manners, and that I am not accepting them. If accepting someone means that I cannot refer to their sex, I question their grip on normality.

In return, I am told to fuck off, that I am vile, that their generation is righteous and that mine is outdated and we have progressed from the days when small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. Ageist incoherent claptrap from the self righteous.

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/11/2024 15:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 13:20

She's not backing down despite the unhinged loons posting her graphic death threats:

x.com/repnancymace/status/1858974780185341958

Some people are framing Mace as being unnecessarily impolite but I’m of the opinion that we can’t have a sensible discussion about the issues of men in women’s spaces without referring to them as men. If the discussions cedes to employing genderist language we lose the effectiveness of our argument because we’d be saying something incoherent like, ‘that woman doesn’t belong in women’s spaces because she is male’, which undercuts the facts and impact of the situation.

I know some people dislike plain speaking because they see it as rude but in this case I think it is using the term ‘male’ as a form of clarification rather than rudeness. McBride is playing the ‘Be Kind’ card for all it’s worth (but doesn’t have any other substantial argument for being granted access to women’s spaces) and because society is not in favour of plain-speaking women the interaction between these two points of view is causing ripples of sexism towards Mace as well as subsequent attempts to police her speech and behaviour to force her to be what they perceive to be as kind (and womanly) - which is in effect to give McBride everything McBrides asks for.

One thing I’m quite interested in is Mace’s declarations that she is a feminist and that is not something that Right-leaning women in politics have been traditionally fond of saying. I find it encouraging that Right-leaning women see themselves as having the power (and inclination) to protect other women and girls, they may not always choose to do it in a way I would agree with but I’m glad to see them wanting to be part of the larger feminist movement and discussion.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 20/11/2024 15:44

PinkChesnut · 19/11/2024 23:38

You don't have to do anything you don't care to. If you like to be perceived as rude, that's your choice.

No, that's blaming someone for someone else's worldview.

CautiousLurker1 · 20/11/2024 15:49

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 14:42

Blunt language time.

Being sterilised and having cosmetic surgery does not change your sex.

You remain the sex you were born, regardless of any decisions you make in your life.

Biology isn't something you get a choice in.

Sue biology for unfair and see how far you get.

I take heart that young people, even devout former believers in the born in the wrong body ideology, are seeing through this lie and understanding that biological truth is immutable. As some here know, my own DD was one of them but has seemingly socially de-transitioned (no male pronouns although still dresses in a gender non-conforming way). She [and, my God, does it feel good to use that pronoun after 7 years knowing that I am not imposing it upon her against her will or contravening her beliefs] has just come home from college and a sociology lesson discussing feminism with an ethnically diverse group of young people aged 19-25 and announced that she was the most feminist person in the room. Am so proud of her, and relieved that holding the line by discussing science, social sciences, women’s place in history, how to critically assess research and those that wrote it, was not ’transphobic’ at all but the sane and rational path to allow her to work out the truth.

I think the more legislatures like that in Texas make these changes; the more public discourse there is on the subject - especially now we have passed out of the ‘no debate’ era; and the more stories of de-transitioners and those who have died and/or suffered as a result of affirming medical care come to light; then the more likely it is that the Dems will be forced to step up. They cannot do anything but acknowledge with the ‘benefit of new understandings’ (ie realising that they were wrong) that the balance of women's and girls’ rights needs redressing and children need safeguarding not steering into irreversible surgeries. There will be huge legal claims from the victims of these policies in future years and the Dems will have to own their part in facilitating it all. [Very garbled para, but hopefully clearer than mud!]

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 15:51

Some people are framing Mace as being unnecessarily impolite but I’m of the opinion that we can’t have a sensible discussion about the issues of men in women’s spaces without referring to them as men. If the discussions cedes to employing genderist language we lose the effectiveness of our argument because we’d be saying something incoherent like, ‘that woman doesn’t belong in women’s spaces because she is male’, which undercuts the facts and impact of the situation.

Yes. Her bravery and plain speaking gives others permission to speak up/challenge/question even when they choose not to be blunt themselves.

Snowypeaks · 20/11/2024 15:54

UtopiaPlanitia · 20/11/2024 15:42

Some people are framing Mace as being unnecessarily impolite but I’m of the opinion that we can’t have a sensible discussion about the issues of men in women’s spaces without referring to them as men. If the discussions cedes to employing genderist language we lose the effectiveness of our argument because we’d be saying something incoherent like, ‘that woman doesn’t belong in women’s spaces because she is male’, which undercuts the facts and impact of the situation.

I know some people dislike plain speaking because they see it as rude but in this case I think it is using the term ‘male’ as a form of clarification rather than rudeness. McBride is playing the ‘Be Kind’ card for all it’s worth (but doesn’t have any other substantial argument for being granted access to women’s spaces) and because society is not in favour of plain-speaking women the interaction between these two points of view is causing ripples of sexism towards Mace as well as subsequent attempts to police her speech and behaviour to force her to be what they perceive to be as kind (and womanly) - which is in effect to give McBride everything McBrides asks for.

One thing I’m quite interested in is Mace’s declarations that she is a feminist and that is not something that Right-leaning women in politics have been traditionally fond of saying. I find it encouraging that Right-leaning women see themselves as having the power (and inclination) to protect other women and girls, they may not always choose to do it in a way I would agree with but I’m glad to see them wanting to be part of the larger feminist movement and discussion.

Yes! I noticed that she called herself a conservative feminist, also pleasantly surprised.
But I was sad and angry on her behalf that she felt she had to disclose previous SA to justify her position on males in women's facilities.