The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

[Ingenieur]

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

Yes, very much this. You could see the difference between a state like California, where masking was like religion, and Florida, where it wasn't encouraged in the same way. Which is to say, they both had ups and downs regardless of the rules.

Covid and the lockdown is what did it for my American friend. She sounds a bit like the woman you describe; someone who has always looked to a healthy diet and to self reliance when it comes to her health. She hadn't seen a doctor for twenty years until just recently when she had an ear infection that wasn't responding to her own treatments.

A lot of people I know grew up and became politically conscious in that sort of culture ( I did myself); and they always tended towards Left/Socialist type thinking......but increasingly I find they have now moved away from what passes as 'Leftism' these days. They didn't like the authoritarianism of lockdown and covid vaccinations, and the lionising of pharmaceuticals as the panacea for everything.

I think arguments coming from what many would describe as the Right are where the radical/anti establishment positions are these days.

@BabaYagasHouse yes, that was the one I was mostly thinking of.

@BonfireLady Bit of both really. Although I am more left wing than most of the hosts of these shows, I’ve been listening to a lot of never Trump Republicans over the last few years. They’ve tended to focus on why MAGA arose, its danger to the US and the world and effective strategies to defeat it. Their emphasis has been on saving democracy rather than party political anrguemnt and they’ve offered a lot of interesting insights on issues like the direction of the Latino vote.

Politicology and the Lincoln Project are interesting because their various hosts seem to be somewhat at odds on the sex/gender issue so they often tip-toed around it. But that seems to have shifted since the election and though at present it’s mainly framed as a critique of identity politics, this seems to be solidifying into something more concrete.

I suspect this is the way the broader conversation will go too - initial critiques of identity politics and Democrats not listening to what voters want will become sharper and more focussed on sex/gender. It won’t happen because many care about women’s rights, but some do care about science and rational thought and all of them can see that it represents the pinnacle of the Democratic Party’s detachment from reality.

Thank you. This is a really interesting insight.

I think this bit is particularly pertinent (my bold):

I suspect this is the way the broader conversation will go too - initial critiques of identity politics and Democrats not listening to what voters want will become sharper and more focussed on sex/gender. It won’t happen because many care about women’s rights, but some do care about science and rational thought and all of them can see that it represents the pinnacle of the Democratic Party’s detachment from reality.

From my casual observation this side of the pond, it feels like it's an issue of fairness in sport (and a recognition that it's unfair if sex categories aren't maintained), fairness in accessing sports funding (which is also unfair if sex categories aren't maintained) and the harm of "gender affirming care" to children that seems to be peaking people. Also perhaps the use of tax payers' money to fund "sex change" operations. Women's rights become a bi-product in that focus.

However, once the sunlight is on the detachment from reality, everything that is propped up by gender identity belief will logically crumble.

Thank you!😁

I think that's a good assessment.

It's not about womens rights really. It's that trans issues bring a focal point to all that's wrong in Democrat thinking.

And then by consequence there can't be anything other than a push back on these points of principle rather than there being a push to reinstate women's rights.

Yes, agreed a good summary. I think most feminists have been aware of this likely trajectory from the beginning of this debate, but pressure from women has always made a big difference and has this time too.

It's about underlying principles and material reality rather than womens rights when it comes down to it.

I reckon this is my main issue too.

Material reality shouldn't need to make way for an ideology grounded in absolute guff and all the problems spring from it being completely shallow and incoherent.

The sooner the Left as a whole recalibrates to recognise this we'll all be better off.

Perhaps then we can begin to have a discussion about what privileges we, as a society, are willing to offer someone whose beliefs are akin to astrology.

As I said on thread 1, my primary focus for being on this board hasn't been women's rights, it's been the direct and indirect risk to my autistic daughter when she started to wonder if she was really a girl.

Fast forward to now and I've learned loads about women's rights (and politics in general) from the brilliant posters on this board. Doing everything I can to mitigate the indirect risk to my daughter meant I needed to learn as much as I could about all of it.

pressure from women has always made a big difference and has this time too.

I agree. However, and this is where I'm going to duck for cover..... I have reluctantly accepted that in order for enough decision makers (who are mostly men in most organisations) to hear what is being said, it takes men's voices repeating it. Acknowledging this shitty reality, I would much prefer that these men are like Andrew Neil, when he gave a big push after Chloe Cole spoke up and then conceded that many women had been warning about this for many years. His apology was a breath of fresh air. However, I'm also glad that men I find revolting, self-centred, sexist etc are finally starting to say things. The "Nigel Farage told me so I get it now" style coming from Campbell is as hard to stomach as the "grab 'em by the pussy" style from Trump but if it results in gender identity belief being ripped out of schools, hospitals, sports and laws so be it. Yes, I'm crap at feminism... I realised this ages ago 😬 I'm glad lots of others aren't though and I'm incredibly grateful to all the amazing women who have done so much to expose this and get it out in the open.

However, and this is where I'm going to duck for cover..... I have reluctantly accepted that in order for enough decision makers (who are mostly men in most organisations) to hear what is being said, it takes men's voices repeating it. Acknowledging this shitty reality

I don't think that's a duck and cover.

That's an observation of the last 8 years. Women can say it over and over again until they are blue in the face, but no one pays attention until a bloke comments. Women are just there to be abused.

Yes re the observation. Lots of people havev said it on here and it's crap that it's true.

I don't think I'm meant to reluctantly accept it though 🙃

It's not about womens rights really. It's that trans issues bring a focal point to all that's wrong in Democrat thinking.

And this is what helped to sink Kamala Harris because when this got exposed she was unable to put forward any counter to the Kamala is for they/them attack ads because these were her choices:
a) "I've changed my position" leading to Democratic activists losing their minds and going after her;
b) "Those are my views" which would have meant undecided voters fleeing from her; or
c) say something that's actually nothing at all because it's the choice with the least risk/damage.

Which brings us back to the subject of the thread. Democrats at the moment cannot have a honest conversation on gender identity because they cannot disown mad views that they've not only held for years, but have aggressively and ruthlessly enforced.

A teacher friend in the UK was somewhat alarmed at a group of boys in her class last week chanting Trump Trump Trump.

After 9/11 we had a bunch of little twerps (mostly in Y9) hero-worshipping Osama bin Laden and wanting to join al-Qaeda. This was in a good school in a prosperous, historic Midlands market town. We had an assembly telling them not to do it.
Teenage boys can be very strange.

It seems that some Democrat Party members (ex-Biden Administration staff) are not open to changing their minds with new facts and I think Benjamin Ryan sums this up well:

https://x.com/benryanwriter/status/1858376843415404708

‘Jen Psaki accurately asserts that there are few trans kids playing in sports. But she falsely claims there’s no evidence that such kids pose a threat to fairness. There are studies finding that natal males, even on estrogen, have a competitive advantage’

There’s a video clip of Psaki saying these things in the tweet I quoted above.

Women are just there to be abused

That's not true @RedToothBrush, we're there to be ignored as well.

Which is why @BonfireLady is perfectly reasonable.

Its not just gender identity that they are a bit stuck on, though thats so obviously at odds with reality its a bit of sore subject. Thanks partly to the internet (or maybe twas always thus) people aren't neatly slotted into political party beliefs but are quite widely spread out in their beliefs - often with quite sharp red lines so:
pro-Israel V pro Palestine
Womens rights V trans-rights
Ukraine (to support or not)
Covid handling and vaccines in general
Climate stuff
enforcing the border

Its not that everyone cares about all those issues, but most engaged people will care really strongly about 1/2/3 and it's not as if all the trans-rights people also support Palestine - they are all over the shop. So if the Democrats take a strong clear line on any of them, they risk alienating a chunk of people. If they take a strong clear line on all off them they risk alienating most because (for example) someone might agree with their stance on Ukraine but disagree with their stance on women's rights.
Trump can promise all things to all people. He can literally contradict himself in a single speech and white nationalists and black supporters will both have something to keep them happy. When asked, supporters will say "I like the fact he is going to do X but I don't really think he means it about Y". Whereas the Democrats can't - all but a hardcore group of supporters will notice that they are lying/contradicting themselves. And people also noticed when they were vague/not answering the question. Maybe that's not fair, but it is how it is and the Democrats response (to just double down on clearly untrue things or try to ignore the issues) feels wrong. I think they tried to copy Trump by going for style over substance, vibes and big rallies but they aren't Trump so it doesn't work. So, hopefully they will at least try to prioritise honesty and clarity even if it isn't what everyone wants to hear. And be rewarded for that in 4 years. Otherwise I worry Trump's methods will just get copied elsewhere and it becomes a race to the bottom. But in a weird way, at least the fact that people did clearly notice the untruths in the TWAW slogans will be a wake up call.

That's fantastic. But also, Psaki actually put it up on Twitter herself with replies open and it went as well as you might expect:

https://x.com/InsideWithPsaki/status/1858213955954417883

Trump can promise all things to all people. He can literally contradict himself in a single speech and white nationalists and black supporters will both have something to keep them happy. When asked, supporters will say "I like the fact he is going to do X but I don't really think he means it about Y". Whereas the Democrats can't - all but a hardcore group of supporters will notice that they are lying/contradicting themselves.

I think part of it is that as the Democrats have become more authoritarian on identity politics, there's been a move to expecting that everyone on their side must hold an approved set of beliefs, all of them without exceptions. As things stand at the moment, I think the Trump-supporting Right in the US are much more open about people on their side being on board over some things but not on others.

Oh, come on, I'm not listening to that!

;-)

I mean, imagine protesting against the rights of women in sport in Salem of all fucking places! Optics are hard to get more wrong.

Exactly, the memes and jokes write themselves.

After 9/11 we had a bunch of little twerps (mostly in Y9) hero-worshipping Osama bin Laden and wanting to join al-Qaeda. This was in a good school in a prosperous, historic Midlands market town. We had an assembly telling them not to do it.
Teenage boys can be very strange.

I remember there being several threads from teachers at the time of the GE saying that in the school mock election vote (something I hadn't known was a thing, but apparently was) most of the kids had voted for Reform.

😁

If you repeat the words yourself, they might make more sense? 😉

Very little I say makes sense these days, according to someone who knows me quite well!