The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

[Ingenieur]

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

Those who have been harmed and recognised they have been harmed by this nonsense that men can be women and vice versa - which very much includes those most caught up in the grips of this ideology - will in time become its biggest critics.

They will ask were those who were supposed to safeguard them were.

Those who have felt compiled to go along with it as teens who lack the power of reply will backlash harder than those who pushed the ideology in the first place.

This is not a prediction. This is an obversation based on historical precidence.

I encourage this post being requoted in a few years time. It will stand up against the movement of time. I am that confident in it.

If only any of these people who tell me I have to use language as they understand it, not as I understand it, could explain to me why their worldview is correct - but they can't or won't. Half of them refuse even to try. They just criticise my manners, and at the same time make out that it's far more serious than manners, and that I am not accepting them.

Yup. Dishonest and disingenuous to its core, this genderist movement.

That's such an interesting point. For all the rhetoric (genocide/denying existences 🙄), ultimately this comes down to nothing more than 'manners'.

Obviously I don't accept it is good manners to lie about someone's sex, but that's the only solid ground that it can be pinned to.

Ultimately they're mad that people won't just accept their world view unquestioningly. But why would anyone do that? 🫠

While we're talking about plain language, I hope the "uses she/her pronouns" can stop now. No! Sarah Mcbride and everyone else with a gender identity want us to use female or male pronouns when talking about them. This is nothing new but let's call it what it is.

💐💐💐💐💪💪💪💪

Am so proud of her, and relieved that holding the line by discussing science, social sciences, women’s place in history, how to critically assess research and those that wrote it, was not ’transphobic’ at all but the sane and rational path to allow her to work out the truth.

It sounds like you can be proud of yourself too 💐

Biological sex is not a binary

Yes it is. This is the factual science bit. As with many things in science, we learn more about it all the time, which is why "intersex" is an outdated term. Thanks to better scientific understanding, we now know that every DSD is sex-specific. Many will be spotted visually (as looking unusual) at birth and then verified by testing. One that is likely to keep being missed at birth is 5-ARD, because the genitals don't grow as they should have done until puberty. Exterior genitals are the last part of the body to grow in the reproductive system, so until puberty any boy with this DSD will have "default" looking genitals because the growth process was interrupted. In other words, they'll look like a girl.
This is a sensitively written article which focuses on this DSD:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

Unfortunately, until the public fully understands that this DSD only affects boys and that they have a standard male puberty, we'll probably keep seeing more boxers and 800m runners with it successfully entering the women's events.

Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Agreed. Obviously ideally children and vulnerable young people don't get confused about the difference between the social construct of gender (identity) and the biological reality of sex when trying to figure themselves out. Pushing against cultural expectations and limitations is difficult enough without having to think about body modification as well.

I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them

This sounds like good advice for gender questioning children. Hopefully they will listen to this and feel less distressed if people don't use their preferred pronouns. Identity in this sense is an understanding of who you are in amongst the rest of the world e.g. how you fit. Everyone goes through a journey on this throughout their lives, but most intensively during puberty.

I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Well, yes. I've been misunderstood on this thread, despite my best efforts to explain what I meant. But then the same advice applies to everyone.

Biological sex is not a binary

Don’t be daft.

Sex in humans is a very good, real life, reproductively necessary example of an actual binary.

It literally means one thing or the other, in this case M or F.

It comes to something when people don't think it's daft to suggest sex isn't binary.

But here we are.

'Open minded' these days seems to mean 'brains fell out'.

It comes to something when people don't think it's daft to suggest sex isn't binary.

The poster did attempt a rather clumsy elision of sex and gender, which may reflect her or his beliefs, or simply be an argumentative device.

Whichever it is, it’s still daft.

In the same way that Riley Gaines said she was inspired by Kellie-Jay Keen. It was at the swim meet where Gaines was competing against Lia Thomas and KJK shouted, “He’s a man!”

That was brilliant especially when some woke dude said 'are you a biologist?' (I mean everyone's seen Thomas right, he's huge and obviously male) and KJK said "I'm not a vet but I know what a dog is" 😂

Round of applause for Rep. Nancy Mace who has indeed now got males banned from using women's facilities in the Capitol!

oh wow!!!

The update on the Capitol toilets is fascinating.

Turns out there are private toilets for every Congress Member in addition to unisex facilities which are being maintained.

Its just the single sex ones are being made single sex.

And this has prompted the obligatory selfie in the ladies and the 'pee in peace' crap. Which could be done quite happily in peace the unisex or private toilet...

But no. We have a Hampsted Pools scenario going on.

Brilliant! 👏

In a further update I see that McBride has 'graciously' agreed to abide by the ruling and will stay out the ladies.

(I guess someone has twigged that it wouldn't look great to do otherwise, if other bathrooms are freely available. And that its not exactly difficult to abide by this decision either).

It wouldn't be a great look to be a newly elected representative and the first thing you do is ignore the democratic process when you have a whole 3 choices of bathroom.

I bet he wouldn’t have backed down a year or two ago.

Brilliant!

Nancy Mace is taking zero prisoners, too, it's great to watch her in action on Twitter.

New York Times weighs in long article.

Harris Loss Has Democrats Fighting Over How to Talk About Transgender Rights
Kamala Harris left Donald J. Trump’s anti-transgender attack ads largely unanswered. Some Democrats call it political malpractice.

Republicans clearly see a political opportunity. The Trump campaign spent more than $37 million on television ads that invoked transgender issues, nearly 20 percent of its overall ad budget, according to data provided by AdImpact, an organization that tracks political ad placement and spending.
Get the best of The Times in your inbox
Republicans also deployed advertisements on transgender issues in Senate races. In Ohio, Republicans attacked Senator Sherrod Brown by saying he supported “allowing trans biological men in girls’ locker rooms.” Mr. Brown, unlike Ms. Harris, responded with his own ad, calling that claim “a complete lie.” (He lost his seat.)

https://archive.is/0cFie

This is only going become a bigger issue in the run up to 2026 midterms and it looks like the Republicans are going to focus hard on it. I think a Congressional investigation into the Big Gender industry is certain. If that happens expect huge changes we know it is as corrupt as tobacco and the Pharma companies who created the opioid epidemic. Will Big Gender be ready to say under oath their procedures are safe and well tested when there are serious legal implications?

In April 1994, seven top tobacco CEOs testified to Congress that they didn't believe nicotine was addictive. Two years later, they were all under federal investigation for potentially lying under oath and no longer leading their embattled cigarette companies.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-06-01-fi-10679-story.html

I gather:
'I'm as feminist as they come but'
and:
'I'm as left as they come but'

will all start identifying as:

'I'm as centrist as they come but'...

Well, it is certainly one more thing to keep watch for, as the Democratic party completely collapse and a new 'centrist' approach emerges.

The NYT still doesn’t get it, does it?

They typically focus on an issue that affects a small minority of Americans

Nancy Mace framing her points in terms of women's rights issues rather than trans rights issues is so refreshing and effective to hear.

Nancy Mace is taking zero prisoners, too, it's great to watch her in action on Twitter.

This is fantastic to hear. As per my comments above, I was curious as to which way it would go.

I've written about it on previous threads (although not for a while) but when I did my whistleblowing at work it was the "toilet issue" that drew the only pushback in the conversation.

By this point in the process I had already secured a change in the company policy so that the correct protected characteristics were used within it (previously it had stated that gender identity was a protected characteristic). Unfortunately the part that is still unaddressed is the mandatory training which positions the importance of gender identity as if it's factual. I've let it go for now as my primary focus is my daughter's school, but I've certainly not ruled out coming back to it.

I had had a positive conversation with senior people in the company during this process. We had a good discussion about different beliefs... which definitely resonated. For example, we talked about how it was possible for people to hold different beliefs without needing to impose them on others - as we're a global company, one example we discussed was that we can be understanding of the importance of Friday prayers for our Muslim colleagues without everyone having to do Friday prayers too.

However, there was an audible gasp from the two women on the call when I said that "although I have empathy with anyone who feels like they are 'trapped in the wrong body', I don't share their belief that everyone has a gender identity so I don't expect to see TW in the women's toilets. That's an example of someone's belief being imposed on me".

Given how reasonable they found the conversation up until this point (and in the previous conversation with an even more senior person who supported what I was doing, despite being somewhat confused about it all and what to say), I hope their visceral reaction to my comments about the company toilets stayed with them as a thought 🤞

Thankfully there are lots of different people having lots of different conversations about this is lots of different places. Hats off to Nancy Mace for the reach that she's getting and for sticking to her guns. Also for her bravery - the mainstream media has now been forced to recognise that it can actually see the unhinged death threats.

When I had a look at her posts, this one stood out too, as it helps to articulate why a) anyone who assumes that the objection is homophobic and/or just a "standard right wing" trope doesn't understand it and b) it's important to separate LGB from T:

https://x.com/NancyMace/status/1859336229457694810?t=xJ8ydaGdqZteejt75Xe4Qg&s=19

Republicans clearly see a political opportunity. The Trump campaign spent more than $37 million on television ads that invoked transgender issues, nearly 20 percent of its overall ad budget

I wonder if this is the point that the Democratic Party realise the unworkability of their position. If they had spent as much on advertising around transgender issues as the Republicans, I wonder what the response in the public opinion would have been? I suspect it would not have been a commensurate swing of support and I suspect that their media strategists would have realised that.