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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity Part 2

465 replies

Ingenieur · 18/11/2024 09:33

Starting a new thread in case the first fills up.

OP posts:
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:32

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

You can't decide your own biological sex. It's as simple as that.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:33

Shortshriftandlethal · 20/11/2024 08:53

You are comfortable with advising young people who are struggling with the normal range of adolescent identity issues, including same sex attraction and autism, to embark on a medically unnecessary path of drugs and even radical surgery - in order to feel comfortable within themselves?

I am comfortable referring them to their medical practioner for more information instead of going on Reddit as their sole source of advice.

By the time I am speaking to them, they already know about medical treatments.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:33

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:30

What they are is already pre-determined from the point of conception: they are human beings and are either male or female

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

They already know about medical interventions for transitioning. Telling them to ask their doctor for specifics to them is preferable to them learning it off of friends or the internet.

Is it likely you approached your daughter's gender questioning in a non-abusive or supportive way? Only she would know. I cannot imagine you were this antagonistic with her, so hopefully it was positive for her.

The Cass is an imperfect report which struggles with bias. I have seen plenty of teen girls question their gender, socially transition, and then transition back when it didn't feel authentic to them.

I cannot imagine you were this antagonistic with her

That's an interesting interpretation of everything that I have written.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:34

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:32

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

You can't decide your own biological sex. It's as simple as that.

Yep 👍

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:32

That would be telling them what they are. That's not for me, or anyone, to decide for them.

You can't decide your own biological sex. It's as simple as that.

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:38

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:33

I cannot imagine you were this antagonistic with her

That's an interesting interpretation of everything that I have written.

Truly I wish only the best for you and your kid and I hope you met her with empathy and she receieved the support from you she needed.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:23

That's exactly the point I'm making with my analogy, because in modern day Britain (unlike in the past)...

You seem to think because I think gender identity ideology is completely incoherent nonsense I should apply exactly the same criteria to all spiritual and religious beliefs. It's my opinion that they are not all the same, and I will continue to treat them differently and refer to them as such, as is my prerogative. You are free to disagree, and I suggest we draw a line under it, because it's a derail.

You are free to disagree, and I suggest we draw a line under it, because it's a derail.

I hope it wasn't a derail as it's directly related to reasons why Democrats don't speak out: they feel they are being respectful to others' beliefs.

But I agree that it risks being a derail, which is why I apologised to the OP earlier.

Hopefully I've successfully articulated what I was trying to say about the benefits of "neutral" approach which focuses on the impact of the belief rather than the belief itself. Even more importantly, hopefully enough Democrats can stop actively defending and repeating the tenets of the belief and instead look at the harms associated with it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:40

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Biological sex is binary. Disorders of sexual development exist.

Gender is a social construct based on sex stereotypes. Without sex, there would be no "gender". We are mostly free to chart our own paths and do what we want, but we can't escape biology entirely.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:41

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:38

Truly I wish only the best for you and your kid and I hope you met her with empathy and she receieved the support from you she needed.

Thank you.

Empathy for her distress, without judgement, is at the core of everything that I am doing to support her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:51

Hopefully I've successfully articulated what I was trying to say about the benefits of "neutral" approach which focuses on the impact of the belief rather than the belief itself.

You've successfully articulated that that is what you personally think, and how you conceptually approach it, yes. Other views exist.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 11:56

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 11:51

Hopefully I've successfully articulated what I was trying to say about the benefits of "neutral" approach which focuses on the impact of the belief rather than the belief itself.

You've successfully articulated that that is what you personally think, and how you conceptually approach it, yes. Other views exist.

You've successfully articulated that that is what you personally think, and how you conceptually approach it, yes.

Great.

Other views exist.

Also great. That's the basis behind my point. That many people hold all sorts of different values as important to them and there is no "right" way to approach this.

Edited for clarity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:03

@BonfireLady

Yes, but you appear to think your own way of dealing with it is the "nuanced" way, and everyone doing it differently is an extremist. I personally think indulging the belief as legitimate often does more harm than good, and I think that generally more bluntness is good, depending on the circumstances. In the public debate, which is what we are talking about, I fully support people highlighting the absurdity of gender identity ideology.

Of course I would try to be sensitive to a person's feelings in real life. I wouldn't go up to someone who claims to have heard voices in their head and laugh in their face that it was bollocks, either.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:03

@BonfireLady

Yes, but you appear to think your own way of dealing with it is the "nuanced" way, and everyone doing it differently is an extremist. I personally think indulging the belief as legitimate often does more harm than good, and I think that generally more bluntness is good, depending on the circumstances. In the public debate, which is what we are talking about, I fully support people highlighting the absurdity of gender identity ideology.

Of course I would try to be sensitive to a person's feelings in real life. I wouldn't go up to someone who claims to have heard voices in their head and laugh in their face that it was bollocks, either.

Yes, but you appear to think your own way of dealing with it is the "nuanced" way, and everyone doing it differently is an extremist

😂🤦‍♀️

No.

Editing to continue, now that I've finished laughing.

In the public debate, which is what we are talking about, I fully support people highlighting the absurdity of gender identity ideology.

So do I, as I have said on multiple occasions. This is just as important as people who discuss it in a more "neutral" way. All of it contributes to the public debate.

I agree that we should stop this conversation now. But I'm not going to let it end on a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:10

Also great. That's the basis behind my point. That many people hold all sorts of different values as important to them and there is no "right" way to approach this.

That's good, so I guess you have no problem with people in the public eye calling it make believe and not affording it any legitimacy then.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:10

Also great. That's the basis behind my point. That many people hold all sorts of different values as important to them and there is no "right" way to approach this.

That's good, so I guess you have no problem with people in the public eye calling it make believe and not affording it any legitimacy then.

Please stop.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:29

Kucinghitam · 20/11/2024 08:44

Goodness, have we gone back in a time machine to 2016?

It does feel a lot like the aftermath of Brexit doesn't it?

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:30

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:38

Truly I wish only the best for you and your kid and I hope you met her with empathy and she receieved the support from you she needed.

She being the point....

IdylicDay · 20/11/2024 12:32

PinkChesnut · 20/11/2024 11:37

Biological sex is not a binary. Gender is a social construct. We made it up! We can do whatever we want. We chart all our own paths.

Anti-trans arguments often sound so controlling to me. I caution trans kids that they can't control how others perceive them and that their identity is internal and not determined by how other's see them or address them, and I think gender criticals should remember they can't control how others perceive themselves.

Biological sex ABSOLUTELY IS a binary. Anti-women arguments are usually flat-earther science denier pseudoscience. There is not one single Biologist that will say biological sex is not binary. It is the one thing, in fact, that is binary and immutable.

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:35

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:09

Yes, but you appear to think your own way of dealing with it is the "nuanced" way, and everyone doing it differently is an extremist

😂🤦‍♀️

No.

Editing to continue, now that I've finished laughing.

In the public debate, which is what we are talking about, I fully support people highlighting the absurdity of gender identity ideology.

So do I, as I have said on multiple occasions. This is just as important as people who discuss it in a more "neutral" way. All of it contributes to the public debate.

I agree that we should stop this conversation now. But I'm not going to let it end on a misrepresentation of what I've been saying.

Edited

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:39

Bonfire I'm simply pointing out that you began this whole discussion by criticising someone else's blunt wording and approach, not by advocating for a variety of different approaches. You've also tried to suggest that you've been saying that all along and it's my misunderstanding which I find a bit disingenuous. We're clearly rubbing each other up the wrong way here, so yes let's draw a line under it.

TheKeatingFive · 20/11/2024 12:42

Also great. That's the basis behind my point. That many people hold all sorts of different values as important to them and there is no "right" way to approach this.

The 'right' way is what works best for the needs of society as a whole.

That does not involve making women shields for men.

If men feel threatened in men's spaces and want to campaign for third spaces then sure. Making it a woman's problem is completely unacceptable.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:43

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

Yes, I fully agree, and part of that has to be society taking this pseudoscientific belief less seriously and as I said earlier, indulging it and referring to it in hushed tones.

BonfireLady · 20/11/2024 12:50

RedToothBrush · 20/11/2024 12:35

The trouble is that 'middle ground' is felt by many to simply not work with a bunch of people who don't take no for an answer and there are many who feel that the only word that is understood is a firm and blunt 'no'.

That's why we've reached the point that we have with people saying men and make believe.

The point is that we've had years to actually have a middle ground approach and this has been met with screams of genocide and threats of suicide. The inevitable consequence is that there is a desire to merely respond like this is a toddler screaming for attention.

I don't really know where I stand with this on a personal level, but I do think that unless there is a robust putting on the brakes - but whoever is willing to do that - it's going to get even worse regardless.

Yep, I get this.

So far IRL my approach has taken me in to conversations that are helpful for my daughter and others in her situation. Also, it's meant there are people who are able to provide support to me now that I've hit the inevitable wall that I knew I always would.

Whilst my IRL engagement is primarily focused on my daughter at its core, I won't be able to support her properly if I keep it just about her. Hopefully I'll continue to navigate the currently choppy waters successfully. Time will tell but this is far too important for me to stop what I'm doing.

Beowulfa · 20/11/2024 12:53

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/11/2024 12:57

I wonder if many former Democrat voters have encountered those who describe themselves as "centrist" but who think sex is a spectrum and work with distressed minors, shrugging off irreversible surgery as ok if it lets a child find their authentic self?

Well, quite.