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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it too early for a post mortem?

672 replies

Appalonia · 15/11/2024 17:22

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

OP posts:
hihelenhi · 29/11/2024 16:22

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:12

Rights for marginalised people aren't a zero-sum scenario.

I do understand and acknowledge your argument about marginalised communities being vulnerable to colonisation. I think it is a very real concern that has to be taken seriously and examined carefully.

I think this argument itself is also vulnerable to hijack; one only need consider the bizarre contortions of alt-right figureheads who are claiming that women and minorities are somehow colonising male-dominated hobbies that were previously gatekept in order to see how easily it can be subverted.

The trans movement is not a "marginalised group". It has too much power and is far too old-school authoritarian for that. Strange how it echoes oppressive men, isn't it?

It is driven by men attempting to colonise (or take back) the hard fought for rights of the demographic they oppressed in the first place. Women.

GailBlancheViola · 29/11/2024 16:26

Genuine social justice movements don't NEED to rewrite other people's history to centre themselves,

Indeed, this is a movement that chants live and let live but has no intention of allowing others that grace, everyone must live as they decree, other people's history must be rewritten, no-one must be allowed to deviate. Authoritarian and dictatorial? Yes on crack.

annejumps · 29/11/2024 16:32

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 14:45

Do you honestly believe this to be the case? How many trans women do you know? In my experience, people generally find empathy for minority groups easier when they have regular contact with individual real people rather than viewing them in a detached fashion as a formless adversary.

I've always had a great deal more success talking to other people in person than I have online, especially in anonymous echo chambers that lend themselves toward adversarial behaviours.

What further sacrifice would satisfy you?

Sorry, where were the supposed sacrifices trans women made listed?

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:34

Brefugee · 29/11/2024 16:16

that's a lot of words to say nothing at all

Ok, I'll rephrase with brevity:

Pretending that marginalised minority groups are invasive/predatory colonisers was a very clever move by reactionary populists and it is winning them a lot of ground back, especially when it turns coalitions of marginalised groups against one another.

hihelenhi · 29/11/2024 16:37

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:34

Ok, I'll rephrase with brevity:

Pretending that marginalised minority groups are invasive/predatory colonisers was a very clever move by reactionary populists and it is winning them a lot of ground back, especially when it turns coalitions of marginalised groups against one another.

There is no "pretending" - except by those who are pretending to belong to a demographic they demonstrably do not. Men who identify as trans women are not women. Literally nothing in common. And who have demonstrably removed rights from us to benefit themselves. There is a veritable mountain of evidence, so lying is not going to help you here. It's glaringly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention over, ooh, the last decade.

And I'm left wing, thanks. And recognised this YEARS before the likes of Trump did, as did a great many of the women here. The gaslighting doesn't work on us, sorry.

Pretending is exactly what you are doing.

GailBlancheViola · 29/11/2024 16:38

Sorry, where were the supposed sacrifices trans women made listed?

We are still waiting, par for the course it joins the ever increasing list of questions that are never answered.

Brefugee · 29/11/2024 16:39

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:34

Ok, I'll rephrase with brevity:

Pretending that marginalised minority groups are invasive/predatory colonisers was a very clever move by reactionary populists and it is winning them a lot of ground back, especially when it turns coalitions of marginalised groups against one another.

again: many words. no meaning.

I'm not sure how you think that we are pretending that men are invading women's spaces. Particularly since so many of them (oh so many) LOVE to post the evidence.

Men are not marginalised.

You're not Brianna Wu are you? that one claimed on twitter that women were never oppressed and never had to fight for anything.

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:43

hihelenhi · 29/11/2024 16:22

The trans movement is not a "marginalised group". It has too much power and is far too old-school authoritarian for that. Strange how it echoes oppressive men, isn't it?

It is driven by men attempting to colonise (or take back) the hard fought for rights of the demographic they oppressed in the first place. Women.

You have internalised the message and are adept at repeating it.

I hope there is still time to avert the future that Trump, Musk and the evangelist right are intending to create for you.

supercalie · 29/11/2024 16:45

Transwomen are men.

There are some medical procedures where a routine pregnancy test will be given for women needing it, to make sure it's safe.

Nobody in the medical profession will be performing one on a man saying they feel like a woman because how they feel is completely irrelevant to the medical reality of whether there is a possibility they could be pregnant. There isn't. Hence the different words.

hihelenhi · 29/11/2024 16:45

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:43

You have internalised the message and are adept at repeating it.

I hope there is still time to avert the future that Trump, Musk and the evangelist right are intending to create for you.

I have not "internalised" any message from the right.

I have OBSERVED for myself, as have many women here. Long before the same things were observed before the right, for different reasons. I was never going to accept the sexist tripe that is trans ideology, or fail to notice what the "movement" has been doing. You must think we were born yesterday.

As I said, your gaslighting will not work here. Many of us women have other experiences of gaslighting men. We recognise it, I'm afraid. Seen it all before. And the entire history of the fight for women's rights has seen it all before as well. Same shit, different outfit.

But then, as pointed out, you wouldn't know about any of that, would you? Given it has nothing to do with your experiences.

Appalonia · 29/11/2024 16:46

theDudesmummy · 17/11/2024 14:23

I am not convinced that Trump and his bros will see the trans issue as any sort of priority now that they have won the election, it was a useful attractor during the election campaign but of course they don't actually give a shit about it. He has made his opinion of women perfectly clear by himself and by the people he has been picking for the cabinet.

Edited

No but Elon Musk certainly does ( due to having lost his son to this insanity ) and has vowed to.destroy the ' woke mind virus'. Also there's going to be quite a few detransitioners court cases coming through soon, which will bring a lot of awareness about this issue. I genuinely feel if a lot of pp knew the reality of what this does to young people's bodies, there will be a lot less sympathy for this ideology.

OP posts:
IdylicDay · 29/11/2024 16:48

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:34

Ok, I'll rephrase with brevity:

Pretending that marginalised minority groups are invasive/predatory colonisers was a very clever move by reactionary populists and it is winning them a lot of ground back, especially when it turns coalitions of marginalised groups against one another.

For the 4th time, males are NOT 'marginalised'. Males are the marginalisers, the oppressors, the predators. As a feminist activist in America says:

"Only men could oppress women for thousands of years, then turn around, put on a dress, and complain that they are the most marginalised group in society."

Secondly, any time a male is in an intimate female only safe single sex space, that is invasive and it is a predatory coloniser act.

IdylicDay · 29/11/2024 16:52

Appalonia · 29/11/2024 16:46

No but Elon Musk certainly does ( due to having lost his son to this insanity ) and has vowed to.destroy the ' woke mind virus'. Also there's going to be quite a few detransitioners court cases coming through soon, which will bring a lot of awareness about this issue. I genuinely feel if a lot of pp knew the reality of what this does to young people's bodies, there will be a lot less sympathy for this ideology.

And Nancy Mace who is seriously focused on this issue.

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 17:13

Brefugee · 29/11/2024 16:39

again: many words. no meaning.

I'm not sure how you think that we are pretending that men are invading women's spaces. Particularly since so many of them (oh so many) LOVE to post the evidence.

Men are not marginalised.

You're not Brianna Wu are you? that one claimed on twitter that women were never oppressed and never had to fight for anything.

I am aware of Brianna Wu and her arguments, some of which - including the above - I disagree with quite vehemently.

I also think the way parts of the trans community have responded to her more toxic arguments have ranged between less than helpful all the way to outright atrocious and, as always, find it endlessly frustrating to see people so desperate to destroy one another. It's straight out of the 2017 evangelist conference divide and conquer pivot and I wish people would be more self-aware.

I can see how a faction of conservative trans celebrities with established personal brands that have been carefully constructed within the existing paradigm of a deeply transphobic society have been seduced into becoming useful idiots. I could have found myself walking the same road quite easily - I think I accidentally escaped by having some negative formative experiences very early on.

I still can't work out if Wu actually believes what she's saying or is just trying to buy a little more time for 'good trans' people before the reaction rolls right over her as well, but either way I don't think it matters at this point.

It's going to take a long, long time to get American politics to take compassion and tolerance seriously again, even after the inevitable backlash against Trump once he takes office reaches its height.

Ah well. Maybe in a few generations' time, if the collapse isn't too catastrophic.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/11/2024 17:15

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 16:12

Rights for marginalised people aren't a zero-sum scenario.

I do understand and acknowledge your argument about marginalised communities being vulnerable to colonisation. I think it is a very real concern that has to be taken seriously and examined carefully.

I think this argument itself is also vulnerable to hijack; one only need consider the bizarre contortions of alt-right figureheads who are claiming that women and minorities are somehow colonising male-dominated hobbies that were previously gatekept in order to see how easily it can be subverted.

Thank you for replying, but you have not answered my simple question.

Given that people with female bodies (biologically female, conceived female, a fact of their existence which does not change after conception regardless of any medical intervention or legal fiction) were historically and are still verbally, physically and sexually abused because of their bodies, and socially, politically and legally marginalised and disempowered relative to those with male bodies, do you accept that trans women and their allies should have stepped back from their demands to open all female-specific opportunities, rights and protections to trans-dentifying male people and left these protections and indeed language itself in place for the female people who still need them?

Do you accept that the insistence of these trans women and their allies on stripping rights and protections from female people is a serious problem that undermines women's confidence in the polticians that support it?

I think this argument itself is also vulnerable to hijack; one only need consider the bizarre contortions of alt-right figureheads who are claiming that women and minorities are somehow colonising male-dominated hobbies that were previously gatekept in order to see how easily it can be subverted.

Yes that argument can be made, but it is very easily countered by pointing out the purpose for which female-only single-sex provisions exist vs male (protection vs exclusion) and the differences in social and physical power between men and women. In fact I welcome anyone making the argument because in countering it I increase the power of my own. A genuinely valid argument does not have to hide away - something trans activists wuold do well to reflect on. Your apparent position that that "women should not speak up about the loss of their rights to trans identifying males in case it makes things worse" is cowardly and in my opinion not made in good faith.

And I will finish by addressing your attempt at a thought terminating cliche "Rights for marginalised people aren't a zero-sum scenario."

Indeed they should not be.

But men (original sex based meaning of the word, of whom trans women are some) appropriating formerly female-only language, spaces and rights IS a zero sum game, because what you gain for trans identifying men, you take from female people who lose what little power and protections they have gained to support them in the challenges of being female in a sexist society.

Does that not tell you that the current flavour of trans rights activism is doing it wrong?

If trans identifying male people truly cannot co-exist in the same spaces or even language as their fellow men, surely the answer is to build something new instead of taking from women, to stop imposing this zero sum game on us and build something new for yourselves that fits you just right?

Believe me, the second you stop imposing yourselves onto us and face the world honestly, women will stand right beside you. We both suffer from not being the default patriarchal male archetype. We have that in common. But we suffer in our own ways not the same way, and trans women denying that and imposing their own ideas about womanhood onto us is colonisation.

RainWithSunnySpells · 29/11/2024 17:19

'It's going to take a long, long time to get American politics to take compassion and tolerance seriously again, even after the inevitable backlash against Trump once he takes office reaches its height.'

A movement that puts pressure on the poople who disagree via 'no debate', rape threats, death threats etc. has sod all to do with compassion and tolerence.

IdylicDay · 29/11/2024 17:30

So, please tell us what sacrifices you have made, @ButterflyHatched ?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/11/2024 17:35

ButterflyHatched · 29/11/2024 17:13

I am aware of Brianna Wu and her arguments, some of which - including the above - I disagree with quite vehemently.

I also think the way parts of the trans community have responded to her more toxic arguments have ranged between less than helpful all the way to outright atrocious and, as always, find it endlessly frustrating to see people so desperate to destroy one another. It's straight out of the 2017 evangelist conference divide and conquer pivot and I wish people would be more self-aware.

I can see how a faction of conservative trans celebrities with established personal brands that have been carefully constructed within the existing paradigm of a deeply transphobic society have been seduced into becoming useful idiots. I could have found myself walking the same road quite easily - I think I accidentally escaped by having some negative formative experiences very early on.

I still can't work out if Wu actually believes what she's saying or is just trying to buy a little more time for 'good trans' people before the reaction rolls right over her as well, but either way I don't think it matters at this point.

It's going to take a long, long time to get American politics to take compassion and tolerance seriously again, even after the inevitable backlash against Trump once he takes office reaches its height.

Ah well. Maybe in a few generations' time, if the collapse isn't too catastrophic.

"American politics" probably isn't going to take compassion and tolerance gender ideology seriously again. The Democrats have just lost an election they should have won easily, in part because some of their core voters were privately so fucked off with this nonsense being imposed on us all that they stayed home.

With any luck, within the next presidential term there will be enough lawsuits from detransitioners and female athletes to thoroughly dampen even Team Pronoun's enthusiasm to start ramming it all down people's throats again as soon as they are back in power.

What "American politics" needs to do is start caring about and having some compassion for the female half of the population. And what American "feminists" need to do is start focusing on those people, not male people who merely identify as an oppressed minority.

LuckyPeonies · 29/11/2024 17:37

My POV as someone who has lived in the states for a long time: gender ideology was a tiny reason for the maga win, though they exploited the issue to full advantage.

Neither candidate received 50% of votes, and trump’s ‘lead’ is only 1.6%. The election was decided by white men (54% trump) and white women (44% trump), mostly rural, who blame the current administration for increased living expenses.

As well as radicalized young men between the ages of 18 & 30 who were whipped into anger by right wing radicals and feel ‘picked on’ and ‘marginalized’ because women dare to expect equality and respect, and won’t treat these ‘men’ with the adoration they feel they deserve. 🙄

leon musk certainly ‘helped’ with that demographic as he feels women should be dutiful incubators and increase the ‘underpopulated human species’, a view mirrored by project 2025, but for caucasians only (as per scotus prior to abortion rights turnover, there is an undersupply of white infants for adoption).

To that end, their next targets are blue states’ remaining abortion rights, IVF, and birth control. In response, sterilizations among young people have increased sharply since the Roe vs Wade overturn, and again since trump’s nomination. Young women know that, in case of pregnancy complications in red states, they may well die, and in case of unwanted pregnancy, they will be forced to birth. Therefore, sterilization is a safer bet.

As less than half the country agree with the fascist admiring incoming administration, hopefully there will be enough resistance to block a full slide into such a regime.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 29/11/2024 17:37

IdylicDay · 29/11/2024 17:30

So, please tell us what sacrifices you have made, @ButterflyHatched ?

They've sacrificed their time to come on here and lecture women about compassion.

DodoPatrol · 29/11/2024 17:38

Oh. It's Butterfly again.

Recognition of sex existed well before the American Right. You can't ban recognition of sex by using different words and hoping a lot.

Dogs can tell human sex. Babies can tell human sex. So can AI. It really isn't political.

RainWithSunnySpells · 29/11/2024 17:43

Sorry about my typo. It's too late to edit.

*People

supercalie · 29/11/2024 17:45

The definition of woman never included "state of mind" until about 10 or so years ago, and so all the laws written and passed prior to this that involve the word woman do not account for that word including the meaning "state of mind".

Therefore, to change the definition to include "state of mind" and have laws include this is to rewrite laws without going through any of the formal processes required to change laws.

The laws protecting women aren't about women who are defined using the new definition, so no law, not a single one, that relates to women or men should be allowed to be reinterpreted according to a new definition of the word that subverts all democratic legislative processes z

JanesLittleGirl · 29/11/2024 17:56

IdylicDay · 29/11/2024 17:30

So, please tell us what sacrifices you have made, @ButterflyHatched ?

Can Butters get back to you after lunch?

annejumps · 29/11/2024 17:59

As much as Trump is unfortunately highly susceptible to whatever monetary gifts, flattery, and favors might be already on the way from the megawealthy interests behind medicalizing gender noncomformity, I think a certain time period of people being in thrall and afraid to say anything is over. A certain corner has been turned.

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