Is it too early for a post mortem?

[Appalonia]

So, now that America has categorically rejected transgender ideology, which I do think will affect the rest of the world, is now the time to ascertain HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

I know a lot of people dislike Matt Walsh, but his documentary, What is a Woman, was jaw dropping! We must NEVER let this dangerous idiocy happen again ( and yes I know it's not over...)

Butters crushed every part of themself down as small as they could and set aside the nuances of their own experiences and then moved to Berwick on Tweed. How much more sacrifice do you want?

I posted this artcle on another thread but these paragraphs are relevant here:

https://www.thefemalecategory.com/p/the-evolution-of-male-inclusion-in

"ICONS co-founder Kim Jones responded: “Yes, women absolutely need to know if they are competing with or against a male player. There should be no right to obscure sex in any situation where sex is relevant, and that includes women's sports and women's spaces. There should be no right of a man to hide his sex from women, but especially not in situations involving consent or where women could be unknowingly taken advantage of on the basis of sex. This includes all situations where men could obtain physical access to vulnerable women, success and accolades due to women, or power over women by hiding their sex.
…

In all of those thoughts on ethics, personal responsibility, truth, honesty, and the word should are doing a lot of heavy lifting. Women should be respected as distinct but equally deserving humans.

More than anything, I find male inclusion by deception depressing, because it demonstrates that a significant portion of our society cannot manage to do that. Activists crowing that trans-identified males have been in women’s sports and spaces forever and we didn’t know it is neither the character endorsement, nor the compelling argument for inclusion they think it is. That there are men running in the women’s category of my local half-marathon without my knowledge does not excuse the lack of consent, the breaking of boundaries. Ten minutes ago, girls’ and women’s sports, women’s classes, women’s bathrooms all operated on the honor system, the key word being honor. Of course, any man could enter those spaces, and some did, but there was stigma attached to it. It was not honorable.”

To get back to the original discussion of this thread.....

The American journalist Wesley Yang posted an interesting analysis of what the Democrats (and left leaning parties generally) refuse to see as unattractive in their electoral and policy offerings:

https://x.com/wesyang/status/1862886120700182636

"The transgender issue is so difficult for liberals because it is one where any conservative by virtue of their default hostility to social innovation is going to be completely right about a movement that depends on waging war on reality and repressing those who wish to remain ensconced in reality.

But even more than that, the issue is a symptom of having reached the end of the age of Emancipation, where all that remains to be liberated are criminals, paraphiliacs, the mentally ill, children, and those in the grip of delusions that remain delusional despite being socially validated.

The Arc of History has in fact reached its terminus in the universal and homogeneous state with no further gains to be milked from the story of liberation and only absurdities and cruelties to be reaped by efforts to manufacture further “progress”."

...no further gains to be milked from the story of liberation...

Really? Because women are totally liberated now are we? Everywhere? Are you sure?

What's depressing is that at least one person replying has picked up on this bit, and pointed out that ..... (drum roll) domesticated animals are still in need of liberation. 😡

We're so invisible, there should be perks, like being able to rob banks with impunity.

@theilltemperedqueenofspacetime

We're so invisible, there should be perks, like being able to rob banks with impunity.

To be fair, have you tried? It could work!

At the very least, it's a damn good concept for a new Netflix series

There should be no right of a man to hide his sex from women, but especially not in situations involving consent or where women could be unknowingly taken advantage of on the basis of sex. This includes all situations where men could obtain physical access to vulnerable women, success and accolades due to women, or power over women by hiding their sex.

This cannot be posted often enough utopia.

This is exactly what male people don’t want to hear and I expect, they just don’t want to begin to understand it. And that is where their male entitlement blazes like a beacon.

Meanwhile... one reason sex denialism is so successful as a backlash against feminism is precisely because people think "We already had feminism, we don't need it anymore [and now it needs to be about men, the real, best women]." (To me, it's not unlike thinking that because, say, children aren't ill en masse from polio, we don't need polio vaccines anymore, but I digress.)

Even for men who are largely on the side of women there can be blindspots 🤷‍♀️

I dunno, it's like they're men and we're women and we aren't the same or sommat. 😬🤔

The concept of "being liberated" is not easy to pin down. When you ask people what they mean by it for ant group the response is often something that has never been true of any group or even individual, and never will be.

It's not an academic question, the answer given is right at the heart of what a political program like feminism or anti-racism or gay liberation are actually supposed to accomplish.

In this case, I don't think the claim is that everyone in every other group has been liberated, whatever that means. It is about the quest to identify the new groups that need to acquire liberation, which has been something the left sees itself as pursuing.

The comment that all that's left will be pedophiles and prisoners is interesting. I find it interesting that even when the left gets into their anti-carceral approach, it is about this idea of liberation. A lot of work done with prisoners practically is actually through religious groups,often on the conservative side, who take a very different approach around taking responsibility, healing, boundaries, and self-knowledge. Which frankly are a hundred times more useful and effective in helping this group concretely.

Ok what would you propose to make sure that nobody ever accidentally mistakes me for a woman again as they do all day long every day in daily life?

Shall I wear a badge, tattoo it on my skin somewhere, or proclaim it wherever I go? A placard, perhaps? Maybe an armband, or a ribbon? A particular colour of clothing?

Errrrr you what, mate?

That's a frankly horrifying thing to claim given the daily headlines demonising minority groups fleeing persecution, the systematic initiatives intended to roll back women's rights being prepared in the US this very moment, the ongoing horror of daily abuse women face from spouses, bosses, colleagues, relatives and often one another; the minority stress people wake up having to live under every day without escape; the atrocious way people with disabilities are treated, even by institutions that ostensibly exist to help them...

Just such a gross thing to claim.

You... you do understand the difference between mistake and deception, yes?

The extract said

There should be no right of a man to hide his sex from women, but especially not in situations involving consent or where women could be unknowingly taken advantage of on the basis of sex. This includes all situations where men could obtain physical access to vulnerable women, success and accolades due to women, or power over women by hiding their sex.

So, should you finid yourself in a situation involving consent or where women could be unknowingly taken advantage of on the basis of sex, including all situations where men could obtain physical access to vulnerable women, success and accolades due to women, or power over women by hiding their sex, and you think it's possible you have been mistakenly assumed to be a woman, you simply say "Excuse me, I'm not a woman so this isn't the right space / opportunity / group for me".

Simple.

Maybe a t-shirt that says

“I’m actually from Dudley, not Berwick-on-Tweed”?

What does that mean in practice? Because it reads a lot like 'disengage from public life' to me. Would it be better for society if I were to simply not be in it?

Oh stop the manipulative self-victimising transperbole. No one is saying you shouldn't 'eXiSt',but that you should use only facilities for your male sex.

Its really that simple. Not hard to do at all.

Womens rights have been rolled back for 4 years in the US already.

Best vote for the guys who've pledged to resoundingly finish the job then! That'll teach those evil transes!

Not safe nor practical, quite aside from any other consideration.

I have been trialling a new rule where I don't pander to ideologies that mandate my expulsion from public life. It's been a bit of an uphill struggle after so many years of learning to hide myself from their enforcers but it's been incredibly liberating, in light of the last decade or so of social breakthroughs, to find the strength to say 'no'.

It isn't manipulative nor hyperbolic to ask not to be victimised.

Don't lie, of course its safe and practical. Transwomen are completely safe in the males, many of them have told us so themselves, gay men have said the same thing. None of this is about safety and you know it. Its all about VALIDATION. It is not safe for us for you to invade our spaces, and you're the invader so your needs come last as its not your space. You are incredibly selfish. You don't think about anyone but yourself. That is classic Male Entitlement. Women are not your HUMAN SHIELDS. Go find a third space.

We women will no longer pander to dangerous and misogynistic ideologies that mandate we lose our safety, our privacy and our dignity for autogynephilic males and those who want validation. We women say no. Get used to it because we are getting louder and stronger, and we will take our rights and spaces back.

You are NOT being 'victimised' by being told to not invade female only safe single sex spaces and use those appropriate for your sex. Again, stop the manipulative and self-victimising transperbole. You are a transgressor, you are not any type of victim.

It’s manipulative and hyperbolic to claim being asked to respect women’s boundaries is “being victimised”.

If you (general ‘you’) are in a male toilet, you say ‘I am male, this is the toilet for me’. Just like women and girls who are asked. I was asked if I was a boy quite a lot as a girl, you simply answer with the truth.

If you (general you) have made extreme body modifications to your body, it doesn’t change material reality. Female people should not have have accommodate male people who have chosen to change their bodies. The female single sex toilet is not for female people and male people who have modified their bodies. It is for female people only. And always was.

Just because some people mistake you (your words) as being female doesn’t change material reality. As usual your posts are hyperbolic and they are emotionally manipulative due to the language you use. No, you don’t have to “wear a badge, tattoo it on my skin somewhere, or proclaim it wherever I go? A placard, perhaps? Maybe an armband, or a ribbon? A particular colour of clothing?”. You just have to do what you should have always been doing. Just calmly tell people
you are male and in the correct space for you when you enter a male space.

Oh. I crossed posted. Sorry.

Oh the melodrama.

If you go into a male space and someone asks you, you calmly reply with the answer. Or you find alternative solutions.

Female people with transgender identities have told us how they plan their trips to new areas where they are not familiar with the toilets offerred by researching. Because they don’t want to use the male or the female toilets / changing rooms.

Has there been a public campaign yet to tell male people that male people include those with extreme body medications and to welcome
those male people into the toilet and changing room?

None of the things you have said in this post are true for me.

I am categorically, demonstrably not safe in male facilities. Other trans women may have different experiences but they cannot speak for me. Doubly so for gay men.

I am not an 'autogynephilic' male, nor any other pseudoscientific, discredited slur you choose to employ in order to dismiss my experiences. For reference I have met a few extremely confused men who self-identify as autogynephiles before and I largely just found myself perplexed by the entire notion as it has never made any sense to me, nor remotely matched any of my own experiences. I just found it rather tedious and hard to understand.

I do not use female facilities in order to seek validation - the entire notion is completely nonsensical.

I use them for the same reasons as other women, because I'm a woman. I really don't give a damn whether you believe I have had a magical female essence since conception or not - it's a completely irrelevant and arbitrary metaphysical exercise that has no bearing on the practicalities of the life I actually live and have been living for considerably longer than I've even been an adult.

It seems we need a reminder on every x pages:

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.
Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.
Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.
How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.