Gisele Pelicot defendants described

[theDudesmummy]

This is a depressing but instructive read. A common theme seems to be that the men claim they just didn't bother to think. And that they "didn't know" or didn't understand about the concept of consent. Is that just what they say, or a true reflection?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/23/a-soldier-a-nurse-a-lorry-driver-and-dozens-more-who-are-the-men-accused-over-and-assault-of-gisele-pelicot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

@Bobblebottle but don’t you know it’s normal to watch porn? Men need porn, they’re visual creatures. Don’t be such a prude /s 🙄

One of the many reasons I’m single is because I am simply unable to become aroused around a man who enjoys wanking over what is an endless quest to find every possible way in which women can be degraded.

👏👏

Men react to the idea of banning porn as though it was a plan to ban oxygen or water or something essential to existence 🙄

Another BBC article on Gisèle, she really is amazing

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1elzzz6g0lo

Obviously the usual warnings but...jc...'choking'!

In Paris (3ème)

Yes, most women would not find this attractive.

Hence things like the 4B movement which is a rational response to high numbers of men getting off on degradation and harm to women (i.e. porn)

Message above meant to quote this excellent post.

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but the French legal definition of rape doesn't actually involve consent. This is the definition:
"Any act of sexual penetration of any kind whatsoever, or any oral-genital act committed on another person or on the person of the perpetrator by violence, coercion, threat or surprise".
Apparently the prosecution are relying upon a convoluted version of surprise, because she was unconscious and unaware.

I wonder if this is influencing these rapists' decisions to describe their supposed lack of understanding of sexual consent.

A convoluted definition of surprise! Is there no simple offence that they can clearly be charged with, because the implication is that the law isn’t really sure if this is problematic behaviour?

Is there no simple offence that they can clearly be charged with?

No - French rape and sexual offences laws are hideously outdated (they only recently added an age of consent). There's a strong push to add consent to the definition in light of this case.

https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210415-french-parliament-approves-landmark-bill-setting-age-of-sexual-consent-at-15 in 2021!

(They also seem.to have set one, at the same age, in 1945 - I'm not sure if that was repealed or just full of holes. My French isn't up.to detailed analysis of legislation. But even 1945 was late to not have one at all.)

There was mention in an earlier link of a "Romeo and Juliet clause" whereby the underage sex charge was excused if the defendant was only a few years older than the complainant

another profile on the rapists, this time on the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr7vvj8gymyo

Victoria Smith in the Critic takes on the defendants excuses that they were abused and knocks it out of the park or, rather, court room

thecritic.co.uk/should-we-feel-pity-for-the-pelicot-accused/

Her writing often annoys me but The Critic clearly has good sub editors so I could enjoy the substance of this article! .

It's such a good piece. On threads about abusive men, particularly narcissist ones, I often make the point that it's hard because you have to accept the cognitive dissonance of both feeling really sorry for these men who genuinely don't understand why their lives are falling apart when their victims start moving away, and complete contempt and hatred for their behaviours.

I think one of the things abotu this case that has been so disturbing has been this idea that these men just don't have to take responsibility. That somehow, it wasn't their fault. They are the victims. It's awful.

I completely agree with this. My previous innocent notions that its only a few men who are bad men has been blown out of the park by arrival of internet porn which has proved that most men are sexually aroused by degrading womem.

NAMALT but Nearly All Men Are Like This.

Channel 5 / ITN doc on now.

He was finally caught in 2020 after being caught upskirting, which only became an offence in France in 2018 after the UK brought in the offence.

It's then that they found the other videos

He had a previous conviction for upskirting - circa 2010, IIRC. So there must have been a way to prosecute it before the 2018 law, even if under a slightly different name.

1

I recently listened to this podcast interview with Isabelle Thieuleux, a French feminist lawyer, who was discussing this case. She made the point that in France people are pushing for lack of consent to be included in their definition of rape but she feels that is a bad idea because the notion of consent puts all the focus on the woman's behaviour, whether she said 'no' etc, rather than the intent of the man, and also because men accused of rape always argue that the sex was consensual.

Given the different legal definitions of rape in the UK vs France, I would be interested to know if there is a difference in rape convictions outcomes. I do think that consent in and of itself is an inappropriate framework with which to conduct sexual relationships, and therefore our understanding or definition of rape.

I honestly think that previous abuse that they've suffered makes their abuse of Gisele Pelicot far far worse.

It's one thing to do something so terrible when you're totally lacking in empathy for the victim because you cannot conceive of the hurt you are inflicting. However if your life has been blighted by abuse and then you inflict that on another, you know to a greater extent the trauma you are causing. And yet, still these men chose to do it anyway. Monsters.

Plenty of children who are abused don't go on to be abusers.

@Bobblebottle

I do think that consent in and of itself is an inappropriate framework with which to conduct sexual relationships, and therefore our understanding or definition of rape.`

Would you mind expanding on this a little @Bobblebottle . I think I see what you mean but need a little help.

Maybe not all men, but this was a perfectly ordinary town not some weird hub of perversion and the reality is that he was easily able to fine 70+ men within the vicinity of the town willing to rape an unconscious woman. The likelihood is that the same could happen anywhere and there’s probably 70 men in the vicinity of you or I willing to do the same.

I can't remember word for word the pathetic excuses coming from the rapists regarding consent hopefully they're clutching at straws and get heavy prison terms
Being presented with an unconscious drugged woman to abuse is RAPE.

One in three.

If they are sure they'll get away with it and you don't actually use the word 'rape' in the question, that's how many men¹ say they would forcibly have sex with a woman who didn't or couldn't consent.

If you actually call it rape, the number drops to one in six.

¹ IIRC the study was of US university students. So perhaps they improve a little as they grow up, but it may also be worse in place like France that don't include the concept of consent in law.

Utterly horrifying