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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gisele Pelicot defendants described

233 replies

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 08:04

This is a depressing but instructive read. A common theme seems to be that the men claim they just didn't bother to think. And that they "didn't know" or didn't understand about the concept of consent. Is that just what they say, or a true reflection?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/23/a-soldier-a-nurse-a-lorry-driver-and-dozens-more-who-are-the-men-accused-over-and-assault-of-gisele-pelicot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

A soldier, a nurse, a lorry driver and dozens more: who are the men accused over rape and assault of Gisèle Pelicot?

Dominique Pelicot has admitted drugging and raping his wife. Fifty other men may face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty in case that has shocked the world

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/23/a-soldier-a-nurse-a-lorry-driver-and-dozens-more-who-are-the-men-accused-over-and-assault-of-gisele-pelicot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 20/12/2024 01:41

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 01:18

6 of the rapists have walked free already, having served time in what France 24 describes as (iirc) "preliminary detention" ( remand?).

One of their lawyers taunted the women protesting outside that his client was free

Another lawyer who should be disbarred.

Datun · 20/12/2024 05:28

They heard the defence ask Gisèle why she didn’t cry enough, was too friendly with her ex-husband (trying to prove their sexual complicity) and noted she swam naked in her swimming pool. One defence lawyer, Nadia El Bouroumi, who treated Gisèle brusquely in court, even made a TikTok of herself miming along to Wham!’s Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, for which in Britain, I’m told, she’d probably be disbarred.

This is awful. I'm shocked. It's making me see the French entirely differently.

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 08:29

Unfortunately isn't this half the shit a UK court would do, apart from rapist's sweetheart Nadia El Bouroumi

ScrollingLeaves · 20/12/2024 08:37

Datun · 20/12/2024 05:28

They heard the defence ask Gisèle why she didn’t cry enough, was too friendly with her ex-husband (trying to prove their sexual complicity) and noted she swam naked in her swimming pool. One defence lawyer, Nadia El Bouroumi, who treated Gisèle brusquely in court, even made a TikTok of herself miming along to Wham!’s Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, for which in Britain, I’m told, she’d probably be disbarred.

This is awful. I'm shocked. It's making me see the French entirely differently.

You are so right. Last night I saw a film with an assassination scene showing an important French military ceremony with dignitaries, politicians, French flags and all the pomp possible, and thought to myself, “And you, and you, and you…”

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 08:46

Hostage to screening scheduling, but why they commissioned Real Girlfriends in Paris about 6 American women in their 20s trying to find romance with french men without getting the ick. I guess it's inspired by Emily in Paris.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Girlfriends_in_Paris

Tho more frightening prospect is that this trial might have inspired some bloke out there to try the same, or that this is already going on in the UK or elsewhere but there's no video evidence

Real Girlfriends in Paris - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Girlfriends_in_Paris

BettyFilous · 20/12/2024 09:30

Tho more frightening prospect is that this trial might have inspired some bloke out there to try the same, or that this is already going on in the UK or elsewhere but there's no video evidence

The same occurred to me. 😕 (Edit: with the risk of some men misjudging the dose and killing their partners or victims. How closely are “accidental overdoses” scrutinised?)

MarieDeGournay · 20/12/2024 10:32

Nadia El Bouroumi - who has a very interesting backstory of forced marriage, domestic abuse, and working her way through law studies by being a hairdresser - is a highly controversial character. She sees her social media 'diary' as separate from her courtroom activities.
She obviously likes to shock - she reminds me a little bit [in style not politics] of Donal Trump - you say the most outrageous things and then double down on them when challenged and try to make your critics look 'elitist' or 'woke' - I don't know if there is a French word for woke yet, but El Bouroumi used the idea of ordinary decent hardworking local provincial men who had been manipulated by the monster Dominque Pelicot and were now being persecuted by the woke Parisian elites..

Émile-Henri Biscarrat - he was the laywer I referred to 'in real time' on another thread when he spoke immediately after the sentencing and appeared to defend the absence of intent as a defence to rape in French law. At the time I thought that was surprising, as he was coming out of a courtroom where that defence hadn't worked for any of the defendants. It felt inappropriate in that moment, and still does.

Guillaume De Palma - he was the one who said 'Il y a viol et viol' - 'There's rape, and there's rape'.
He seems less combative than Biscarrat, and has stated that he was making that point not to the public, but to the judges, purely on the basis of current legal definitions, in defence of his clients - that there is what the public and the media consider rape, and there is what the law considers rape.

Who was the one who taunted GP's supporters outside the court, Lalgarh? I missed that.

All of the defence barristers had a job to do, and it wouldn't have been a fair trial if they hadn't done their absolute best to defend their clients.
Nadia El Bouroumi is now saying that she sympathised with Gisèle Pelicot and was just doing her job [she used the very 'street' slang word 'taff' for work - she would, wouldn't she🙄]

None of that would make any of them them 'the rapist's sweetheart', but I think their words and behaviour outside the courtroom are fair game for criticism.

edited for typos - the ones I spotted anyway!

lcakethereforeIam · 20/12/2024 12:08

I'm assuming he's comparing them to the women who knitted while watching people being guillotined. I'm not au fait with French metaphors but I'd think he was calling them ghouls.

AInightingale · 20/12/2024 13:29

I can't help thinking about this and the Lily Phillips story at the same time. Yes, the men in the Phillips case weren't rapists (not in the legal sense anyway) and she has got very rich through her stunt and the notoriety it's engendered, but really how profoundly depressing it is that there are so many men who will abuse a woman's body like a literal piece of meat if it's offered up to them.

MarieDeGournay · 20/12/2024 13:34

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 11:51

Who was the one who taunted GP's supporters outside the court, Lalgarh? I missed that.

@MarieDeGournay
Not sure but he called the women "knitters"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14210179/Fury-rape-trial-Gisele-Pelicot-police-angry-crowd-lawyer-Monster-Avignon-verdicts.html

I couldn't read the Daily Mail article but I chased it up in the French media-
he is Christophe Bruschi. He did indeed shout at the demonstrators outside 'Mon client est libre, il vous remercie et il vous dit merde !' 'My client is free, he thanks you, and he tells you to ..' literally it is 'he says shit to you' but 'he tells you to piss off' might by a suitable translation.

He called them hysterical and, as lcakethereforeIam said, likened them to the women who knitted while watching heads roll during the French Revolution.
He is now saying that he isn't anti-feminist, he's just against those feminists subjecting his client and the other defendants to abuse during the trial, who are doing a disservice to the feminist cause🙄 And 'tricoteuses' is just an historical reference.

His and El Bouroumi's actions and words have been widely criticised and it remains to be seen if they are formally sanctioned for their behaviour. I suspect they are both relishing the publicity.

lcakethereforeIam · 20/12/2024 13:42

Nice when the learned professionals conduct themselves with dignity.

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 13:45

AInightingale · 20/12/2024 13:29

I can't help thinking about this and the Lily Phillips story at the same time. Yes, the men in the Phillips case weren't rapists (not in the legal sense anyway) and she has got very rich through her stunt and the notoriety it's engendered, but really how profoundly depressing it is that there are so many men who will abuse a woman's body like a literal piece of meat if it's offered up to them.

Is that the woman who allowed 100 men to screw her as a stunt for Only Fans? She's mentioned in that Unherd article on the Pelicot case.

She said she was doing this because she EMPOWAD as a WUMMUN and is proud of her sexxxy body andthis was her fantasy. Then she burst into tears shortly afterwards https://unherd.com/2024/12/the-triumph-of-gisele-pelicot/

As for Phillips herself, she claimed the event was her fantasy and that she enjoyed it — but broke down in tears afterwards. Even the men who turned up to use her begged for relatedness, Phillips reported, but were briskly sent on their way. Thus Phillips’ enframing of herself even extended to the male participants, creating an industrial conveyor-belt of impersonal rutting for the hungry OnlyFans camera frame.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 20/12/2024 16:10

The convicted men have 10 days to lodge an appeal. At least 2 have already done so.

AInightingale · 20/12/2024 16:27

That's a great article @Lalgarh , thanks for linking to it. And I think the author is spot on in also referencing the 'pure passivity and cognitive oblivion' of AGP porn. She quotes Andrea Long Chu but it's such a common theme among these men.
The libfems have been uncharacteristically quiet about Phillips - basically a sex worker - because what can they say?

ScrollingLeaves · 20/12/2024 18:27

Lalgarh · 20/12/2024 13:45

Is that the woman who allowed 100 men to screw her as a stunt for Only Fans? She's mentioned in that Unherd article on the Pelicot case.

She said she was doing this because she EMPOWAD as a WUMMUN and is proud of her sexxxy body andthis was her fantasy. Then she burst into tears shortly afterwards https://unherd.com/2024/12/the-triumph-of-gisele-pelicot/

As for Phillips herself, she claimed the event was her fantasy and that she enjoyed it — but broke down in tears afterwards. Even the men who turned up to use her begged for relatedness, Phillips reported, but were briskly sent on their way. Thus Phillips’ enframing of herself even extended to the male participants, creating an industrial conveyor-belt of impersonal rutting for the hungry OnlyFans camera frame.

Edited

I cannot understand why this is legal as it is so likely to cause harm, just as it wouldn’t be legal if someone invited punches and cuts from all comers if they were to take up the invitation.

ChateauMargaux · 20/12/2024 19:00

Christophe Bruschi continues to show his contempt for women, out side of the court - he does not believe that women who have shown up outside of the court are there to support Gisèle, but that they are there to taunt men and to deny them their right to access women's bodies in what ever way they please. his behaviour out side of the court tells us even more about how men see women.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 20/12/2024 19:53

ChateauMargaux · 20/12/2024 19:00

Christophe Bruschi continues to show his contempt for women, out side of the court - he does not believe that women who have shown up outside of the court are there to support Gisèle, but that they are there to taunt men and to deny them their right to access women's bodies in what ever way they please. his behaviour out side of the court tells us even more about how men see women.

Perhaps the police should go through Bruschi's computer?

Yatzydog · 20/12/2024 21:52

The men are scum. Here is one quote from the article:

He had denied rape and told the court: “I’m not a rapist, but if I had wanted to rape I wouldn’t have chosen a 57-year-old woman, I would have chosen a pretty one.”

They seem to object to the words "rapist" and "rape" the most.

Although I do have some sympathy in some of the awful biographies of some. Trauma begets trauma. It passes on down. Not excusing them at all, but I doubt some of these men would be so devoid of empathy had they have not suffered violent or sexual abuse when younger. For me, rather than excuses it shows what work is needed to break these negative chains. But it makes me depressed that in our increasingly self-centered society it won't happen.

Amplepie · 20/12/2024 22:12

Datun · 20/12/2024 05:28

They heard the defence ask Gisèle why she didn’t cry enough, was too friendly with her ex-husband (trying to prove their sexual complicity) and noted she swam naked in her swimming pool. One defence lawyer, Nadia El Bouroumi, who treated Gisèle brusquely in court, even made a TikTok of herself miming along to Wham!’s Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go, for which in Britain, I’m told, she’d probably be disbarred.

This is awful. I'm shocked. It's making me see the French entirely differently.

France has always been appallingly misogynistic. Britain is a very long way ahead of most of the world in the basics of feminism, unfortunately.

ScrollingLeaves · 20/12/2024 23:33

Yatzydog · 20/12/2024 21:52

The men are scum. Here is one quote from the article:

He had denied rape and told the court: “I’m not a rapist, but if I had wanted to rape I wouldn’t have chosen a 57-year-old woman, I would have chosen a pretty one.”

They seem to object to the words "rapist" and "rape" the most.

Although I do have some sympathy in some of the awful biographies of some. Trauma begets trauma. It passes on down. Not excusing them at all, but I doubt some of these men would be so devoid of empathy had they have not suffered violent or sexual abuse when younger. For me, rather than excuses it shows what work is needed to break these negative chains. But it makes me depressed that in our increasingly self-centered society it won't happen.

I do so agree with all you say.

MarieDeGournay · 21/12/2024 00:48

Yatzydog · 20/12/2024 21:52

The men are scum. Here is one quote from the article:

He had denied rape and told the court: “I’m not a rapist, but if I had wanted to rape I wouldn’t have chosen a 57-year-old woman, I would have chosen a pretty one.”

They seem to object to the words "rapist" and "rape" the most.

Although I do have some sympathy in some of the awful biographies of some. Trauma begets trauma. It passes on down. Not excusing them at all, but I doubt some of these men would be so devoid of empathy had they have not suffered violent or sexual abuse when younger. For me, rather than excuses it shows what work is needed to break these negative chains. But it makes me depressed that in our increasingly self-centered society it won't happen.

Trauma does not beget trauma. Trauma can be stopped and not passed on. Passing on trauma is a choice.
I really object to the idea that having been sexually abused in childhood in any way explains (I accept you don't claim it excuses it) going on to sexually abuse children in adulthood.

If this was true, the majority of sexual abusers of children would be women, because the majority of sexually abused children are girls - but only a tiny minority of sexual abusers of children are female. In my experience, women who have been sexually abused in childhood are not at all 'devoid of empathy' - they are more likely to be campaigners against sexual abuse, than perpetrators of it.

Men can choose to do likewise - my father was badly abused as a child, and decided that he would never lay a finger on his children, and would instead give us all the security and love he had been deprived of in his childhood. And if he could make that choice, so could any male survivor of sexual abuse.

Having been fortunate enough to have a father who was not abusive, I had the misfortune to be sexually abused by a neighbour. So I know what the trauma of sexual abuse is like, and therefore, far from wishing to pass it on in the negative chain of trauma, the so-called cycle of abuse, I would never ever inflict that trauma on anybody else.

The backstories of the defendants in the Pelicot case had to be presented because their lawyers had to do everything in their power to defend their clients, including playing the sympathy card; fortunately the judges saw through it, and held the men responsible for what they, as grown up men, choose to do.

I'm sorry Yatzydog, I hope what I've written doesn't come across as too combative, it's just something I feel very strongly about from personal experience, and I get emotional about it.

Upset by the topic, not at you YatzydogSmile

WishinAndHopin · 21/12/2024 00:50

Yatzydog · 20/12/2024 21:52

The men are scum. Here is one quote from the article:

He had denied rape and told the court: “I’m not a rapist, but if I had wanted to rape I wouldn’t have chosen a 57-year-old woman, I would have chosen a pretty one.”

They seem to object to the words "rapist" and "rape" the most.

Although I do have some sympathy in some of the awful biographies of some. Trauma begets trauma. It passes on down. Not excusing them at all, but I doubt some of these men would be so devoid of empathy had they have not suffered violent or sexual abuse when younger. For me, rather than excuses it shows what work is needed to break these negative chains. But it makes me depressed that in our increasingly self-centered society it won't happen.

I don't believe that all of these men were sexually abused. They're just making excuses and looking for sympathy. I bet none of them have proof that it happened in the form of convictions.

I find it interesting how women are disbelieved - even Gisele Pelicot with video evidence - yet men claiming sexual victimisation are always taken at their word, even if they are depraved rapists with something to gain.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/12/2024 00:57

WishinAndHopin · 21/12/2024 00:50

I don't believe that all of these men were sexually abused. They're just making excuses and looking for sympathy. I bet none of them have proof that it happened in the form of convictions.

I find it interesting how women are disbelieved - even Gisele Pelicot with video evidence - yet men claiming sexual victimisation are always taken at their word, even if they are depraved rapists with something to gain.

I bet none of them have proof that it happened in the form of convictions.

Without disagreeing with your general point that they might have been lying, I cannot agree with what you said above.

Infinitesimally few sexually abused people have proof that it happened in the form of convictions, let alone those who were children when it happened.