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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gisele Pelicot defendants described

233 replies

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 08:04

This is a depressing but instructive read. A common theme seems to be that the men claim they just didn't bother to think. And that they "didn't know" or didn't understand about the concept of consent. Is that just what they say, or a true reflection?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/23/a-soldier-a-nurse-a-lorry-driver-and-dozens-more-who-are-the-men-accused-over-and-assault-of-gisele-pelicot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

A soldier, a nurse, a lorry driver and dozens more: who are the men accused over rape and assault of Gisèle Pelicot?

Dominique Pelicot has admitted drugging and raping his wife. Fifty other men may face up to 20 years in prison if found guilty in case that has shocked the world

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/23/a-soldier-a-nurse-a-lorry-driver-and-dozens-more-who-are-the-men-accused-over-and-assault-of-gisele-pelicot?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

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TurquoiseBear · 23/10/2024 11:23

I agree with all of you that the excuses are wholly unnecessary.
One was jailed previously for raping his own daughter FFS.
I’m also horrified that a couple of these alleged rapists’ parters are standing by them. WTAF. In the event they are not convicted (and I sincerely hope they are) they still went digging around on a horrendous online forum to find someone to cheat with. Why would anyone want to stay in such a relationship.

ChateauMargaux · 23/10/2024 11:36

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 09:49

I can't seem to find anywhere what sex the judges are, does anyone know?

I also searched for that... it is rather telling that on some level we do not trust men not to deliver justice.. and it crosed my mind that these 'excuses'.. who doesn't find ways of having their sexual urges satisfied... who doesn't believe that women could be part of such a game... might stike a chord with other males and result in some leniency.

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 11:37

Gisele has just said in court "When you’re raped there is shame, and it’s not for us to have shame – it’s for them". That is absolutely spot on. Will this trial change anything? In France or anywhere else. One can hope.

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GillBeck · 23/10/2024 11:40

TurquoiseBear · 23/10/2024 11:23

I agree with all of you that the excuses are wholly unnecessary.
One was jailed previously for raping his own daughter FFS.
I’m also horrified that a couple of these alleged rapists’ parters are standing by them. WTAF. In the event they are not convicted (and I sincerely hope they are) they still went digging around on a horrendous online forum to find someone to cheat with. Why would anyone want to stay in such a relationship.

I have no issue with the men trying to give excuses. That is how court works; if they were moral men they would never have raped Gisele. I object to anyone giving them any weight or publishing them.

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 11:43

I suppose with male judges it could cut both ways. On the one hand they may be inclined to be sympathetic to these allegedly unstoppable "urges" that men supposedly experience. As well as unable to fully empathise with Gisele. On the other you can imagine that a man might have a NAMALT mindset and be invested in marking these men out as "other" and monsters" and not representative of men.

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MarieDeGournay · 23/10/2024 12:26

I read it all, to the end, if Gisèle Pelicot endured it I can endure reading about it. But I now feel physically ill.

This was a cross-section of men. True, men who used porn and were on chatrooms, but that doesn't narrow down the cross-section very much. They were from different places and different backgrounds. Lots of them were the bloke-next-door father-of-family types. But every one of them is a rapist.
The conclusions to be drawn from that about the danger men pose to women and children are frightening. It could be any man. There is no guarantee, no safety.

I agree wholeheartedly about the 'sob stories'. I understand that each defendant will be trying to offer some kind of excuse or mitigation. The point is that being sexually abused as a child is not an excuse - it does not cause you to choose to repeat the abuse. The majority of CSA victims are girls, they grown up to be women, and women form a tiny minority of abusers; the 'cycle of abuse' is a manifestation of toxic masculinity at work.
In my experience, an adult female survivors of CSA is more like to be fiercely protective of children.

I'm fed up with men using that as an excuse for abusing children. If childhood sexual abuse has happened to you, as it has to me, you know how awful it is and if you have a grain of morality in you, you would die rather than inflict that on a vulnerable child.

The only positive in this sickening case is the unbelievable, powerful courage of Gisèle Pelicot.

DreamyCyanFinch · 23/10/2024 12:43

I noticed two of the men had partners , who were standing by them,I found this pretty shocking.
A high preportion had already got a criminal record, I think not quite half.
I think what's frightening is half were not at all known to the police at all.

DreamyCyanFinch · 23/10/2024 12:45

Okay someone already mentioned the one's whose partners were standing by them, awful.How coould you stand by someone like that?

TurquoiseBear · 23/10/2024 12:54

Yes @GillBeck thank you for pointing out the difference between the court process and their excuses being reported. That’s what is not needed.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 23/10/2024 13:09

Without her knowledge was the name of the chat room that these rapists chose to enter and participate in.

The Guardian can fuck off with these rapists’ sob stories. I don’t care what has happened to them in their lives because Gisele should be kept central here, not those pathetic turds. All I can say is that I wish them all a very uncomfortable, lengthy sejour in the nick.

TrainedByDinosaurs · 23/10/2024 13:10

I couldn’t get far through that list it’s chilling. I’ll go back later I think it’s important to read

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 23/10/2024 13:11

TurquoiseBear · 23/10/2024 11:23

I agree with all of you that the excuses are wholly unnecessary.
One was jailed previously for raping his own daughter FFS.
I’m also horrified that a couple of these alleged rapists’ parters are standing by them. WTAF. In the event they are not convicted (and I sincerely hope they are) they still went digging around on a horrendous online forum to find someone to cheat with. Why would anyone want to stay in such a relationship.

JFC

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 23/10/2024 13:12

BarberBealShaw · 23/10/2024 09:39

Men understand consent perfectly well when it comes to their own holes.

Excellent point. Thank you.

TemuSpecialBuy · 23/10/2024 13:16

Firestace · 23/10/2024 08:50

The chat room was called "without her knowledge" so I find men that frequent it, arrange to meet a woman without her knowledge via her husband knew full well what they were doing, but thought they'd get away with it. It was calculated and planned by all of them surely.

Edited

Agreed

I think it’s a further insult and violation to Gisele that they had the fucking audacity to plead “innocent”

Ellerby83 · 23/10/2024 13:18

I noticed that they didn't use their surnames. Isn't one of the reasons we don't have anonymity in the UK is so other victims can come forward

VictorianBigot · 23/10/2024 13:34

I managed to make it to the end. The one towards the bottom who said if he wanted to rape someone he’d have chosen someone pretty, what a disgrace.

It’s shocking how many of them were suddenly banging on about the importance of consent, one even going so far as to say he would set up some sort of awareness group WTF. They don’t give a fuck and they know they don’t give a fuck. If they did they wouldn’t have been on websites like without her knowledge or whatever the disgusting stain on humanity is called.

Gisèle Pelicot was incredibly brave to waive her right to anonymity, it actually made me cry. I cannot imagine how painful this trial is for her. It’s heartening to see the crowds and marches in support of her.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 23/10/2024 13:46

You did well to get to the end @VictorianBigot I couldn’t get past the first sob story.

What you wrote in your first paragraph about “someone pretty” made me feel sick. This rapist has learned nothing, has he, from his time in the legal process since being charged and investigated. I honestly feel quite despairing.

Msmoonpie · 23/10/2024 14:11

It’s utterly incredible but in a bad way.

It’s amazing how many have the gall to pretend they don’t understand consent.

I imagine that if they suddenly were the one on the receiving end of being assaulted by another man they would understand it very well indeed.

biscuitandcake · 23/10/2024 14:17

ChateauMargaux · 23/10/2024 11:36

I also searched for that... it is rather telling that on some level we do not trust men not to deliver justice.. and it crosed my mind that these 'excuses'.. who doesn't find ways of having their sexual urges satisfied... who doesn't believe that women could be part of such a game... might stike a chord with other males and result in some leniency.

I hate to say it but there is no guarantee that women would be stricter than men in this regard. There are women sitting on juries who will decide that the violent male rapist can't really by guilty because he seems so nice and polite and well dressed. There are the women who are sticking by their husbands in this case. In some ways women have more to lose psychologically by confronting how awful (some) men are. Men on the other hand know what men are like. That doesn't mean women shouldn't judge rape cases, just that they aren't automatically better at it than men. I read somewhere that the harshest sentences are handed down by male judges with daughter but I can't find that now so take it with a pinch of salt. Besides which it might not be practical to make "has a daughter" a prerequisite of judging a rape trial. Much better to put time and energy into countering rape myths and assumptions held by judges and juries regardless of sex.

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 14:17

I hope they all get extremely long sentences, but the ones with the excuses and Monsieur "If I was going to rape someone I wouldn't have raped her" should get extraordinarily long ones. (He's not an isolated example, variations of this disgusting defence have been said in various courts many times).

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caramac04 · 23/10/2024 14:21

Their sexual gratification was more important than a woman’s consent. I suspect that knowing it was without consent heightened their experience.
Utter scum who should be kicked in the bin never to emerge.

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 14:21

I also find it disgusting that the fact that Gisele had an affair many years ago has even been brought up in court, as if it has any relevance whatsoever.

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theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 14:25

If lack of consent was not the precise main point of the activities they signed up for, then why would they have been on a website "without her knowledge"? No reason whatsoever. The excuse that they thought it was a game in which she was consenting doesn't wash, given that fact. (Also Dominique has explicitly said that they all knew perfectly well). I would like to see the ones who trotted out that lie getting longer sentences as well.

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biscuitandcake · 23/10/2024 14:27

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 23/10/2024 13:09

Without her knowledge was the name of the chat room that these rapists chose to enter and participate in.

The Guardian can fuck off with these rapists’ sob stories. I don’t care what has happened to them in their lives because Gisele should be kept central here, not those pathetic turds. All I can say is that I wish them all a very uncomfortable, lengthy sejour in the nick.

Also, many are likely lying. Usually when people talk about childhood abuse, unqualified unjudgmental belief should be the first assumption because very very few people (within the general population) would lie about that and because being believed is often so important. The proportion of men convicted of horrific crimes who would lie about it however is much higher both because:

  1. They desperately need an excuse/mitigating factor to make what they did seem less horrific. A history of childhood abuse that you conveniently never mentioned before to anyone** is hard to disprove.
  2. Some paedophiles/sex offenders fantasise about this stuff. and put themselves in the position of an abused child because child abuse sexually excites him. This is also why many of these people are so quick to accuse real victims of lying. Because that's what they do.
Some of them clearly had well documented difficult childhoods. And maybe some of them were telling the truth. But either way, its no excuse.

** I would never say this about anyone else. There are lots of reasons for people not to talk about this stuff until decades later. But prison-onset memories of child trauma are just an older version of prison-onset gender dysphoria.

theDudesmummy · 23/10/2024 14:41

People will lie about anything given enough reason. I work with survivors of sexual abuse and from time to time I encounter people who are found to have been lying about it. Not very often, and only in the context that they have something very significant to gain from saying they were abused (eg a perceived excuse for a crime, as here, or money). It can make one feel very angry because of the real suffering that the genuine survivors experience.

Some of these men were probably abused (it's more common that most people realise), not that it is an excuse they even should have mentioned in the context of this particular crime, and some are probably lying.

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