12 ways to gently respectfully challenge pro-trans arguments

[Ladyof2024]

I thought this might come in useful to those just beginning to take on the opposition.
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Twelve Ways to Voice Opposition to Daft Ideas Without Losing Friends or Alienating People, by Joanna Gray.

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How to get better at objecting to unedifying ideas

Ask the person suggesting an obviously daft idea if he or she would mind if you shared your opinion about it, rather than foisting it on him or her uninvited.

Respect others’ intentions. Most people are good and are trying their best, so avoid a heavy-handed aggressive disapproval.

Ask questions: “That’s such an interesting idea Chancellor, what are you hoping to achieve by it?” Often, that is sufficient: if the idea is flawed it will unravel itself in no time.

Remember your Aristotle: to win debates you need ethos, logos and pathos. Ethos is your good character and your authority to speak on the subject – most crudely used by those who say “as a mother…”. Logos is the truth of the matter. Pathos is your ability to persuade your opponent. Emotion alone is insufficient to win the point, it must be backed up by truth, but an ability to connect with and respect the emotion of your opponent is vital.

Remember you are debating the idea not the person. Don’t make him or her feel threatened, belittled or ill-informed.

Just try it! You don’t need to present a fully formed Douglas Murray-style-gotcha speech, initially it might just be sufficient to say, “I’m not yet sure why, but this idea is making me feel uncomfortable, may I have a think about it and get back to you?” If social or career disaster doesn’t follow, then you may feel emboldened to make a more spirited and researched objection later.

Be prepared to flatter. “You will know more about this than me but have you thought about…”

Listen to your opponent. Don’t stand there rolling your eyes, tutting or guffawing,

Remain calm and never shout.

Be prepared to use their own language. “Chancellor, this act of removing artworks of men might be considered by some to sit adjacent to sexism…”

Be satisfied with having planted a seed of doubt in those who listen to you, rather than furiously fighting for decisive victory.

Remind yourself why making a stand is important: “If not me, who? If not now, when?”

No thank you

I didn't say both sides are as bad aa each other. I said that no amount of gentle questioning would change each others minds.
Am I wrong? Are you open to changing your mind?

There is nothing 'demonizing' about calling a woman a woman or a man a man. Men and women are human beings not demons.

Even people who make profits out of assisting unhappy young people to damage their bodies in the hope of curing unhappiness are not demonic, just greedy and deluded.

I'm not quite so sure about those who push gender stereotypes.

It is what the majority think though. I think it is more respectful to say this to an individual than alternative approaches which suggest that there may be any way in which people can really transition from one sex to another.

It isn't possible and therefore "that's a mental illness" said in a way that is common to our colloquial speech "it's f...... mental" is actually approaching a person with some respect, rather than approaching a person as someone lacking in ability to become self aware.

I think people should do it more!

I don't think anyone here is labouring under the misapprehension that they can change a TRAs mind.

They might be able to change someone's mind who was more on the fence/ hadn't thought about it.

Your posts come across as 'you're all as bad as each other'.

After years of struggling to be heard over #no debate and patiently meeting death and rape threats with reasoned debate, that rankles a bit!

I see the force of your argument. It certainly has more clarity than the mealy-mouthed subservient approach suggested in the OP.

I, for one, look askance at pretty much anyone who is ‘flattering’ me. As soon as I would pick up on the suggestions in that list I would feel manipulated.

Remember your Aristotle: to win debates you need ethos, logos and pathos. Ethos is your good character and your authority to speak on the subject – most crudely used by those who say “as a mother…”. Logos is the truth of the matter. Pathos is your ability to persuade your opponent. Emotion alone is insufficient to win the point, it must be backed up by truth, but an ability to connect with and respect the emotion of your opponent is vital.

This is useful, so thanks, OP!

Like many others, I'm afraid I have used up all the fucks I ever had to give about anyone who would try to assert that humans can change sex and that women should accede to men because men say so.

We don't need 'gentle' when people are openly trying to strip us of rights.

“Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.
You take a step towards him, he takes a step back.
Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.”

Nope. I won’t be guilt tripped into softening the blow when I tell someone that sex is immutable, that no one has ever been nor ever will be ‘born in the wrong body’, That there is no such thing as a ‘trans child’. That puberty blockers are irreversible and extremely dangerous.
I could go on…

Words are violence, right? So any woman who advocates for feminism, however politely, gently or thoughtfully she expresses it, deserves to be punched in the face. I believe that's how it goes.

Have you ever met or talked to a trans child @Soontobe60 that you can so authoritatively deny their entire existence and lived reality?!

If a person is clearly suffering from a distressing mental illness, denying that the distorted world view their disease presents is true is potentially life saving, and not in any way denying the existence of the individual.

Yet again, see the parallel with eating disorders. I have no doubt my 5 stone neighbour's entire existence and lived reality was tied up with her belief that she was fat. I'm very glad she was eventually persuaded not to starve herself to death.

More effective ways to challenge modern idiocy:

Tell the truth.

Say "no" more.

Never be gentle to male colonisers. They aren't gentle to us. Mock them out of our spaces.

I there's a difference between saying that children with gender dysphoria are likely to grow out of it so should be given exploratory therapy and not medical interventions and saying that transchildren don't exist.

The former acknowledges their suffering and attempts to help. The latter seems dismissive and doesn't offer any support.

'Gently' is the whole reason we got in this position in the first place.

Fuck being gentle. Fuck being kind.

Be assertive. Be confident in your convictions. Have informed reasoning to back them up. Respectfully call out bullshit.

Only activists use 'transchildren'.

Gender questioning or gender incongruent children need good, evidence-based care and support, not lies that suggest they can change sex.

We tried that. They just shouted No debate! Then Transphobe!
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Language is the battleground, so to use their language is to concede.

I will not be changing my mind about sex being binary, fixed at conception and immutable. Because sex is binary, fixed at conception and immutable.

I agree with the sentiments of your post, OP. I also understand why many women feel that they tried ‘being kind’ and got nowhere. I think the best way forward is a mix of both though. I don’t go on Twitter much these days as it’s just an unrelenting battle between people who don’t want to listen to one another. And a lot of unkindness I don’t want to align myself with (again, I get the anger but I don’t want to go that low). Interpersonally, I always find things go better when I show respect. That doesn’t mean simpering and I can be assertive as well as respectful.

Children believe in Santa and the tooth fairy. Their lived existence would tell them they're correct - they believe, presents get delivered, teeth get swapped for money.
They also deserve sensible adults around them making sure they don't go off to university still believing in something that is patently not true.

And I'm sick of the dishonesty/disingenuity of statements like this:
there's a difference between saying that children with gender dysphoria are likely to grow out of it so should be given exploratory therapy and not medical interventions and saying that transchildren don't exist.

You try to make it sound cruel and unfeeling by using the word "exist" as if we are denying the suffering or psychological problems of children. Of course children who are gender-distressed exist. All we are saying is that they aren't "trans". Nobody is.

Have you ever met or talked to a trans child @Soontobe60 that you can so authoritatively deny their entire existence and lived reality?!

Perhaps you can enlighten people on what you think a "trans child" is?

No child needs to be rendered permanently sterile.
No child for any reason.

To equate that with this argument - so you're saying "certain children shouldn't exist" has a slight oxymoron quality to it.....

I'm not being dishonest. I'm just disagreeing with something you said. I think using the word "exist" is cruel and unfeeling in this context. It is not dishonest or disengenuos for me to point this out.

@DoIEver

I think using the word "exist" is cruel and unfeeling in this context.

"Exist" is a word you used, isn't it?

A child whose gender is incongruent with the sex assigned to them at birth. Obviously.