12 ways to gently respectfully challenge pro-trans arguments

[Ladyof2024]

I thought this might come in useful to those just beginning to take on the opposition.
-------------

Twelve Ways to Voice Opposition to Daft Ideas Without Losing Friends or Alienating People, by Joanna Gray.

====================================
How to get better at objecting to unedifying ideas

Ask the person suggesting an obviously daft idea if he or she would mind if you shared your opinion about it, rather than foisting it on him or her uninvited.

Respect others’ intentions. Most people are good and are trying their best, so avoid a heavy-handed aggressive disapproval.

Ask questions: “That’s such an interesting idea Chancellor, what are you hoping to achieve by it?” Often, that is sufficient: if the idea is flawed it will unravel itself in no time.

Remember your Aristotle: to win debates you need ethos, logos and pathos. Ethos is your good character and your authority to speak on the subject – most crudely used by those who say “as a mother…”. Logos is the truth of the matter. Pathos is your ability to persuade your opponent. Emotion alone is insufficient to win the point, it must be backed up by truth, but an ability to connect with and respect the emotion of your opponent is vital.

Remember you are debating the idea not the person. Don’t make him or her feel threatened, belittled or ill-informed.

Just try it! You don’t need to present a fully formed Douglas Murray-style-gotcha speech, initially it might just be sufficient to say, “I’m not yet sure why, but this idea is making me feel uncomfortable, may I have a think about it and get back to you?” If social or career disaster doesn’t follow, then you may feel emboldened to make a more spirited and researched objection later.

Be prepared to flatter. “You will know more about this than me but have you thought about…”

Listen to your opponent. Don’t stand there rolling your eyes, tutting or guffawing,

Remain calm and never shout.

Be prepared to use their own language. “Chancellor, this act of removing artworks of men might be considered by some to sit adjacent to sexism…”

Be satisfied with having planted a seed of doubt in those who listen to you, rather than furiously fighting for decisive victory.

Remind yourself why making a stand is important: “If not me, who? If not now, when?”

Are you suggesting we should only be allowed to post on FWR if we subscribe to the GC norm on this board @AccidentallyWesAnderson?

I think we agree on more than we disagree here. I said previously that these children should be given therapy rather than interventions like puberty blockers etc.

@ElleWoods15
What is gender, please?

Anyone can post anything they like. That’s how discussion forums work. It baffles me though that you constantly post your ideology pushing nonsense on a board that the majority don’t adhere to, and where the majority aren’t ‘respectful’. Why? You never answer any reasonable points put to you, or address any factual inaccuracies.

It would be like me, as a believer of biological reality and rejector of trans ideology, constantly posting on the trans Reddit boards.

I couldn’t think of a more colossal waste of my time.

There certainly isn't much room for diversity of thought here, but, to be fair this is also true of online spaces which cater towards the TRA perspective.
Most places are just online echo chambers at this stage!

What you and the pp take issue with is that we don't believe in your ideology.

That seems like you think I'm a TRA.

Why do you think subscribing to some of the ideology makes you a TRA? I had you down as a someone who wants posters to be "kind" actually. I don't believe that children should be described as "trans". We clearly disagree. It's as simple as that.

Well one side goes on fact, the other in make believe. When you try and insist make believe is indeed fact and enforce compelled thought then that’s going to piss off quite a few people. And rightly so.

I think it would do most people good to properly engage with counter arguments to their deeply entrenched views. It's quite telling that you don't see any value in posting somewhere that your views are challenged.

So you don’t believe people can be trans at all? Seriously??

There's someone gently and kindly explaining that they don't agree with my views. They seem to believe some people are "really" trans, when all this means is they

A) don't conform to the gendered stereotypes associated with their sex

AND

B) Prefer the gendered stereotypes of the opposite sex

AND

C) They attempt to appear as though they're the opposite sex.

It seems to me that "being trans" is a condition of unhappiness with gendered roles. No-one is really the opposite sex, that's ridiculous.

I have better things to do with my time than try and engage with people who think you can change sex, that if you don’t think you can change sex you are a bigot ‘enter your usual insults here’, who think it’s ok for males to be in women’s spaces and sports, and that children can be trans. I’ll sometimes deal with the few that pop up here, as evidenced now but otherwise no.

And these people can’t even describe what gender bloody is most of the time.

I'm quite happy to engage with counter arguments. This is a straw man. Many of the posters over the years who have come here to "disagree" don't (and I assume can't) actually back up their arguments, such as they are, they just spout their mantras and insult people. No one has to put up with that, really, do they.

Be gentle
Be nice
Be kind
Be respectful
Stay calm
Don’t shout
Be a good girl
Flatter, pander, pussyfoot
Don’t get upset
Don’t get angry

Blah blah fucking blah

I've found that asking probing questions works well. If possible I'll pretend I know nothing at all about the topic and welcome their attempts to educate me. While poking holes in what they're saying.

Maybe years of being called bigots, nazi's, terf's, evil, death and rape threats , doxxing etc etc means we're kinda past the "please may I kindly put my point across, pretty please!!"

I don't really like conflict in real life, it upsets me and bothers me for days afterwards. So I have to be a bit sly to get my points across.

Elle

I don't believe in "man minds" and "woman minds". I think it's a horribly sexist idea. And without that, I cannot believe that people are trans in any way that is more "real" than a manifestation of their own rigid thinking about what type of minds men and women are supposed to have.

So, trans people as in people who believe something about their mind does not align with their body, or with society's expectations of their body, and that this is something intrinsic about who they are rather than a sign that society has it wrong, clearly exist.

But Trans people as in people who are objectively mentally aligned to the body and/or social role of the opposite sex rather than their own in a way that is not just a problem with social roles or mental dissociation from their own body, but some quality that is real and intrinsic to that person's self? No, I do not believe such a person exists.

Now, this does not mean I trivialise the very real distress some trans identifying people feel. I may believe their transness has a social or mental health root rather than being due to a "real" quality of gender intrinisic to the human mind, but once a person has developed this belief about themselves, the best outcome for some may still be to live in the way they believe the opposite sex does (as long as they not expected to be accomodated as the opposite sex obviously). Yes, it's not "true", but as long as it does not encrouch on the rights and voices of those who actually are that sex, it seems a reasonable way to manage their condition.

But that fact that trans identifying people may suffer real distress, and may feel real relief in transitioning, is not proof that transness itself is "real" in the sense of an objective and intrinsic difference between trans identifying people and others of their sex, or an objective and intrinsic similarity with others of the opposite sex.

After all, people have literally accepted death rather than give up their religion, or experienced deep spiritual ecstascy becasue of it. Their suffering and deaths, or their ecstacy, were certainly real, as was their belief, but it doesn't follow that the thing they believed in was.

Humans can believe something very very very strongly and feel it is very very very real to them to the point they will die for it, and it still not be real.

So I can accept trans people are describing something that is very real to them, without accepting that gender identity is a meaningful universal human quality that we should restructure society around.

That, @Soontobe60, is what is known as an opinion. And as you may also know, it’s not universally held one. And certainly not held by the ‘trans children’ you would seek to deny exist.

I note that the OP has never come back.

Did they

1 - post with gentleness and kindness foremost in their mind

Or

2 - lob a stink bomb onto FWR and see how much chaos their bored, tiny mind could cause?

Answers on a postcard to
How predictable dept
Fuckedofffeminist House, UK.

The ideological part is considering what these children say as truth, isn't it?

I'm a massive fan of "you're talking shite".

I've found that asking probing questions works well. If possible I'll pretend I know nothing at all about the topic and welcome their attempts to educate me. While poking holes in what they're saying.

That's a good way if you can pull it off!

People call themselves 'trans' - they have dysphoria and think they want to become the opposite sex.

But it's meaningless.

Nobody can know what it's like to be a member of the opposite sex. It's literally impossible.

Nobody can change sex.

@ElleWoods15
Why don't you tell us what gender is?

I don't think it's meaningless. I think gender dysphoria is a real condition and I think that some people have better lives by transitioning. I don't think this means they've actually changed sex though.