12 ways to gently respectfully challenge pro-trans arguments

[Ladyof2024]

I thought this might come in useful to those just beginning to take on the opposition.
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Twelve Ways to Voice Opposition to Daft Ideas Without Losing Friends or Alienating People, by Joanna Gray.

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How to get better at objecting to unedifying ideas

Ask the person suggesting an obviously daft idea if he or she would mind if you shared your opinion about it, rather than foisting it on him or her uninvited.

Respect others’ intentions. Most people are good and are trying their best, so avoid a heavy-handed aggressive disapproval.

Ask questions: “That’s such an interesting idea Chancellor, what are you hoping to achieve by it?” Often, that is sufficient: if the idea is flawed it will unravel itself in no time.

Remember your Aristotle: to win debates you need ethos, logos and pathos. Ethos is your good character and your authority to speak on the subject – most crudely used by those who say “as a mother…”. Logos is the truth of the matter. Pathos is your ability to persuade your opponent. Emotion alone is insufficient to win the point, it must be backed up by truth, but an ability to connect with and respect the emotion of your opponent is vital.

Remember you are debating the idea not the person. Don’t make him or her feel threatened, belittled or ill-informed.

Just try it! You don’t need to present a fully formed Douglas Murray-style-gotcha speech, initially it might just be sufficient to say, “I’m not yet sure why, but this idea is making me feel uncomfortable, may I have a think about it and get back to you?” If social or career disaster doesn’t follow, then you may feel emboldened to make a more spirited and researched objection later.

Be prepared to flatter. “You will know more about this than me but have you thought about…”

Listen to your opponent. Don’t stand there rolling your eyes, tutting or guffawing,

Remain calm and never shout.

Be prepared to use their own language. “Chancellor, this act of removing artworks of men might be considered by some to sit adjacent to sexism…”

Be satisfied with having planted a seed of doubt in those who listen to you, rather than furiously fighting for decisive victory.

Remind yourself why making a stand is important: “If not me, who? If not now, when?”

The difference being that a believer in biological reality would never actually be in the position of "constantly posting on the trans Reddit boards", because after their first post they'd get tossed offer quicker than you can count 1-2-3. All meekly and gently of course.

Whereas posters like Dad and Elle pop up on MN with predictable regularity, even if other posters don't share theyr view.

Indeed.

Believe me, @DoIEver I would be incredibly relieved if a transactivist could come up with a rational reason why we should accept that some men are women or why it’s completely fair and reasonable for those men to be treated as if they were women for all purposes. If there was significant, high quality clinical evidence that transitioning children is warranted, despite the awful harms and side effects, I’d be delighted.

Those are the beliefs and expectations that are being demanded of us, but there’s never a rational argument presented, rather our emotions are appealed to or we are threatened and ostracized for any objection, with no room for manouvre.

Most women on here used to support so called “trans rights” but were convinced there were significant problems with what is being demanded, by rational arguments.

I would love to stop watching this train crash and to be convinced there was not some appalling calamity occurring: that women’s rights were not under threat and no children were being harmed.

If you have any such rational arguments, please do tell. I think many of us would quickly be persuaded.

Oh dear… so you're now claiming that it’s the ‘caregivers’ who are communicating to their children that they are “a gender other than the sex assigned to them at birth“. Thus proving my point.

if you speak to children who are trans you find that for some, the fact they are a gender other than the sex assigned to them at birth had been communicated by them to their care givers long before anyone could have taught them about ‘gender ideology’

from Wikipedia: Douglas was extremely close with his mother and often considered a "mama's boy". Until around age 8, she dressed him in skirts and kept his hair long and in curls.

How different the world might have been if MacArthur had known about gender identity. Possibly different better, maybe the skirts and stuff was what made him so keen on the A bomb.

joking

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur

Ok - show me absolute proof that a person has changed sex from male top female or vice versa. You'll be a very very rich person if you do because so far no one has been able to do so.
Children exist. Some of those children have been groomed into believing they can change sex. Just like some of them have been groomed into believing in heaven and hell, reincarnation or a man called Jesus was crucified then a few days later rose up into ‘heaven’. Your hyperbole isn't the winning argument you think.

"a gender other than the sex assigned to them at birth"

You keep using the word "gender" in different ways, possibly without even realising it.
Are you going to explain what gender is, @ElleWoods15? If not, please let me know and I will stop asking.

Gender is how you think about and perceive yourself.

The reason I choose not to engage with you @Snowypeaks is because you seem to think that my posting on this board entitles you to subject me to some kind of viva. It doesn’t.

Decades ago from the years 13 to 16 I stopped eating almost everything and severely calorie counted every day. I hit about 7 stone which was much too thin for my physique. The adults worried and tried to encourage me to eat - I found ways around it and carried on. It was not uncommon. It was boring and limiting, but I felt in control.

A "rude" friend of my mother's whom I disliked said to me one day "you have spots because you're not eating". That evening I ate my first full meal - I cooked it and consumed it. Very shortly after that - 6 months-ish, I was eating properly, although still in a way controlled by me. I became a healthy adult in time with a bit more self awareness. Teenagers need straight talking adults. They are asking where the boundary is. It isn't kind not to show them.

So what is the relationship of gender to sex?
If a person has a different gender to the sex "assigned at birth", are you saying that what is "assigned at birth" - is the way the person thinks about or perceives him- or herself?

Why should "what someone thinks about themselves" be on a birth certificate?

Sex assigned at birth is a commonly used term. Even Hilary Cass uses it in her report. So you’re free to look it up.

As I’ve said, I don’t engage with you because you seem to think you have the right to repeatedly interrogate me, which you don’t. I won’t be answering any further comments from you.

That is not what I asked you, but in a way you have answered because it's clear that you don't know what you mean by gender, or - it seems - sex.

😂Darn, really need someone to show me where that jammie dodger emoji is!

I'm not going to try "gently persuading" male supremacists that there's no such thing as changing sex and that women should not be subjected to abuse from perverted crossdressers invading our spaces. They know it and it's entirely deliberate.

When people have an answer which they personally find convincing, they are rarely backward in stating it (unless it's a matter of shyness). So when someone doesn't respond to a particular question, it is often revealing. We as a species are pretty good at arguing that black is white, but not always so good at explaining what we mean by the terms we use.

So what does gender mean? What does sex mean? How can gender be congruent or incongruent with sex (assigned at birth, or observed)?

Are you sure you know what it means?
😆

It shouldn't.

I think that when it comes to the sex of a person on their birth certificate, this should be never changeable as other tangible facts - date of birth, place of birth, sex of person registered.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic

How can gender be congruent or incongruent with sex (assigned at birth, or observed)?

That is the million dollar question isn't it?

I have never, never, seen anyone who advocates for cross sex rights and identities to be allowed to supercede sex-based rights and identities give an answer that does not rely on sexist stereotypes. Never.

Gender is how you think about and perceive yourself.

So it's gender that's assigned at birth then. Not sex, because sex is a biological fact and gender is how you think about and perceive yourself. Have I got that right?

The term assigned at birth was originally used for intersex people born with ambiguous genitals. Drs would literally assign them a sex and carry out surgery to bring the appearance of genitals into line with what they assigned. I think that sex is observed at birth rather than assigned in the vast majority of cases.

Of course if something is assigned - especially to a newborn - that is what somebody else thinks about them, not what they think about themselves. And therefore by this definition it cannot be gender.

And contrary to Elle's claim, Cass does not use the phrase 'assigned at birth' except when quoting. The report used 'birth-registered sex'.

To go back to the original article:

Remember your Aristotle: to win debates you need ethos, logos and pathos. Ethos is your good character and your authority to speak on the subject. Logos is the truth of the matter. Pathos is your ability to persuade your opponent.

[...]

Be prepared to flatter. “You will know more about this than me but have you thought about…”

If I do the second to flatter, I fail at least 2, and probably all 3, points of the first. If I give away my authority and deny the truth, how will I persuade?

Thank you for the link to the Norwich Quakers article, which I found very good to read, drawing reasonable, balanced conclusions from their Listening meetings, as follows:

Lessons for Friends and others
A number of lessons can be drawn from the totality of this experience, which are, in no particular order:
The opportunity simply to speak and be heard, without discussion or argument, is a powerful and unthreatening means of advancing goodwill and understanding
Despite all the hostility, there is an area of clear general agreement between those in conflict, namely that the socially constructed boundaries around notions of male and female are far too rigid and prescriptive/proscriptive. These tight boundaries make it impossible for many individuals to fully express themselves; there is a need to loosen societal gender boundaries
Genuine fears exist on either side of the self-identification of gender divide, all of which deserve to be heard and understood by those with different experiences and perspectives
There is no single, shared understanding of gender identity among trans people; some vehemently oppose discussion of this issue, while others welcome debate, indeed find it necessary
Despite Quakerism’s Testimony to Equality, there are individual Friends who are perceived to feel or behave in a prejudiced way towards transgender individuals
Refusal by Norwich Meeting to allow intimidation to silence expression of views, has, as a result of the subsequent conflict and the Meeting’s efforts to address the conflict, enabled Norwich Friends who are outside the gender politics community, to gain a more informed appreciation of the complex issues involved
In the course of seeking sources of possible speakers, we learnt of the existence of the De-transition Advocacy Network, a support group for people who have transitioned but later regret it, and wish to de-transition.
Transphobia is a real threat and injustice to trans people, but predatory and controlling men are a real threat to the safety of women. Both groups deserve justice and society’s protection. It is not acceptable for members of one vulnerable group and a section of their supporters to attack the other, portray them as hateful, or attempt to silence the expression of their concerns.
Nobody benefits from the perpetuation of conflict. There is much more work to be done to take the hostility out of this sensitive and contentious area, to enable common ground to be explored, and to promote understanding of all perspectives.

Norwich Local Meeting Elders (Teresa Belton, Tom Foxe, David Mazure, Luzie Wingen) March 2020

And contrary to Elle's claim, Cass does not use the phrase 'assigned at birth' except when quoting. The report used 'birth-registered sex'.

This has been pointed out to Elle before.

Got to love the Quakers.

When words are strange or disturbing to you, try to sense where they come from and what has nourished the lives of others. Listen patiently and seek the truth which other people’s opinions may contain for you. Avoid hurtful criticism and provocative language. Do not allow the strength of your convictions to betray you into making statements or allegations that are unfair or untrue. Think it possible that you may be mistaken.

https://qfp.quaker.org.uk/passage/1-02/