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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Free Speech Union meeting evicted from Brighton pub

230 replies

raspb · 18/09/2024 09:24

I don't think there's already a thread on this. Apologies if so. I just read this report on Julie Birchill's Facebook page:

Laura King writes:

Whole Free Speech Union meeting evicted from the Southern Belle pub tonight after only one speaker.

Scandalous. Will be covered by Brighton and Hove News.

Police report just filed.

We had a pre-booked meeting in the rear of the pub, almost completely screened off from the rest of the pub - on a quiet Tuesday evening - for an evening of speeches on various topics.
After 15 minutes or so of the first speaker - a retired teacher - discussing her concerns about child safeguarding in schools, a number of security guards appeared. I went to talk to them and see what the problem was. They wouldn't be specific but asked that I talked to the Landlord. I spoke to a tall young man who looked to be in his early 20s who didn't seem like the landlord and explained that a former teacher was talking about child safeguarding in schools. He didn't say much and I pointed out the speaker giving the talk was LGBT herself, if they were worried about any offence being caused and that we were not there to cause offence. I thought I had dealt with the situation but within a few minutes there was a rush of security guards coming into the room and demanding that we left. I said we had just finished listening to that speech and that there were two more on completely different subjects but they said the Landlord had said we had to leave. One of them tried to grab the speaker and drag it out of the room, which was still plugged in. I tried to stop him pointing out it was my property and he had no right to touch it or damage it. He grabbed my wrist hard and still tried to seize the speaker. I shouted at him that he was assaulting me and I was going to report him to the Police and he let me go. My partner got hustled out of the room physically and they tried to take his drink off him when he left to go and try and find the manager. Various people were in shock and we refused to leave and politely debated with the security guards, who kept insisting we had to leave, even though it was a public house and we are the public, and there had been no incidents, which the security guards freely admitted was true. in fact one even said he had 'better things to do on a Tuesday night than break up a room of mostly middle-aged people NOT causing any trouble.' We stood our ground for a few minutes while many people taped and filmed the exchanges with Paragon Security. A few people tried to ring the Police but then found out they were refusing to come out. 'Hate speech' was mentioned by a Security guard so I challenged him to prove his allegation and pointed out the room was actually full of intelligent peace-loving people, not haters. Plus there were many LGBT individuals in the audience not being offended. Most of us insisted on finishing our drinks before leaving and then people hung about outside as they couldn't believe what had just happened marvelling to each other that they no longer lived in a free country. The local media was contacted. Someone had shouted out 'Let's go to The Wick' but when we got there Paragon Security were already there and denying admission. This is double harassment of innocent individuals, who were not even trying to have a meeting at this point, but just socialising because it was far too early to call it a night and go home. So if the landlord of The Southern Belle had us evicted, what right did that landlord have to prevent us being admitted to another pub? This counts as harassment by the Southern Belle management via Paragon Security twice over.

OP posts:
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9
Puppylucky · 18/09/2024 20:55

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 19:03

Hope it won’t be your local any more….

Why? As I said it's not a description I recognise. It's a hotel rather than a pub and doesn't have security. The back room where the talk took place isn't policed in any way and is completely separate from the rest of the downstairs area, so how anyone would know what was being discussed I don't know. I'm not trying to cause a row but I just don't see how this happened the way it's described. About that only thing that rings true is the manager is young but he's not particularly tall!

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 21:04

Puppylucky · 18/09/2024 20:55

Why? As I said it's not a description I recognise. It's a hotel rather than a pub and doesn't have security. The back room where the talk took place isn't policed in any way and is completely separate from the rest of the downstairs area, so how anyone would know what was being discussed I don't know. I'm not trying to cause a row but I just don't see how this happened the way it's described. About that only thing that rings true is the manager is young but he's not particularly tall!

Pagoda is a local security firm in Brighton. They work with most of the pubs and are on call out. Clearly the manager who by all accounts doesn’t like people having opinions, called Pagoda and got people thrown out, quite illegally.

id not ever want to give money to people who acted like that. Though I reckon the landlord might be on their way soon.

bazoom · 18/09/2024 21:06

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 20:48

I’d LOVE to know the “other side”

Yep me too😀

DworkinWasRight · 18/09/2024 21:13

Tillow4ever · 18/09/2024 20:35

Also, that article is an Irish pub, located in Ireland. We aren’t talking about the same legal system and rules as we are in England.

Belfast is in the U.K. the last time I looked.

IwantToRetire · 18/09/2024 21:16

Cant be bothered to quote the exact words that gender critical beliefs / sex based rights are being exploited by the right wing. Just such an infantile remarkd.

Strangely enough most people live their lifes totally free of constantly thinking is this in line with my political party.

So when basic rights are being undermined any number of people for slightly different reasons will think it is wrong and vocalise this. And sometimes even organise.

This is not about the right wing exploiting. As in most instances, if their is anything right wing about FSU it only seems that because the left stays silent.

It is the absence of any public display of suppport for gender critical politics, let alone women's sex based rights, that might is some casual unthoughtout way say its been hijacked by the right.

It hasn't.

The actual problem is the self absorbed anti woman left that is so busy inflating their importance to each other, that they dont actually do anything for ordinary members of the public, particularly women.

There is no right wing bias.

There is no co-option by the right wing.

There is only the cowardly, lack of support and public backing by the left of women and the erasure of their rights by gender politics.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 18/09/2024 21:18

DworkinWasRight · 18/09/2024 21:13

Belfast is in the U.K. the last time I looked.

But still does not operate under English law. (But certainly not Irish law!)

Christinapple · 18/09/2024 21:21

Tillow4ever · 18/09/2024 11:18

Ignoring everything else, unfortunately pubs are well within their legal rights to refuse to serve anyone and can kick anyone out that they wish. They can also refuse to allow entry to anyone.

There are likely to be exceptions if it can be proven that the reason for those actions is due to a protected characteristic... key word being proven.

I'm sorry you were treated so badly - I have no idea why any pub would choose to kick out paying customers in the current environment for pubs to get honest! Sounds ridiculous to me.

They don't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to sue. Pubs have a right to throw anyone out as you say if they are causing a nuisance. There are a couple videos on twitter showing the group being a proper nuisance after being told to leave by shouting and throwing accusations at the bouncers etc.

They should arrange to meet in a private home for these gender critical discussions if they must have them, I don't think most of the public wants to hear them.

ArabellaScott · 18/09/2024 21:24

Christinapple · 18/09/2024 21:21

They don't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to sue. Pubs have a right to throw anyone out as you say if they are causing a nuisance. There are a couple videos on twitter showing the group being a proper nuisance after being told to leave by shouting and throwing accusations at the bouncers etc.

They should arrange to meet in a private home for these gender critical discussions if they must have them, I don't think most of the public wants to hear them.

😆

TriesNotToBeCynical · 18/09/2024 21:24

Christinapple · 18/09/2024 21:21

They don't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to sue. Pubs have a right to throw anyone out as you say if they are causing a nuisance. There are a couple videos on twitter showing the group being a proper nuisance after being told to leave by shouting and throwing accusations at the bouncers etc.

They should arrange to meet in a private home for these gender critical discussions if they must have them, I don't think most of the public wants to hear them.

The operative words are "after being told to leave". That will have little relevance to the case. Only what they did before being told to leave is relevant.

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 21:27

Christinapple · 18/09/2024 21:21

They don't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to sue. Pubs have a right to throw anyone out as you say if they are causing a nuisance. There are a couple videos on twitter showing the group being a proper nuisance after being told to leave by shouting and throwing accusations at the bouncers etc.

They should arrange to meet in a private home for these gender critical discussions if they must have them, I don't think most of the public wants to hear them.

Politely. That’s fucking bollocks.

for one. The public DO want to hear about it. Parents. Women. Homosexuals. They’re all being erased.

secondly you can’t kick someone out of a pub for being gay. Or black. Or believing that women don’t have cocks. That - is illegal.

Abhannmor · 18/09/2024 21:31

Christinapple · 18/09/2024 21:21

They don't have a leg to stand on if they wanted to sue. Pubs have a right to throw anyone out as you say if they are causing a nuisance. There are a couple videos on twitter showing the group being a proper nuisance after being told to leave by shouting and throwing accusations at the bouncers etc.

They should arrange to meet in a private home for these gender critical discussions if they must have them, I don't think most of the public wants to hear them.

We , the general public , will be the judge of that thank you.

DworkinWasRight · 18/09/2024 21:44

I’m quite impressed by the number of ways Chrstinapple finds to be wrong - there’s a new one every time.

RaspberryParade · 18/09/2024 21:49

DworkinWasRight · 18/09/2024 21:44

I’m quite impressed by the number of ways Chrstinapple finds to be wrong - there’s a new one every time.

😂😂

JoanDarc · 18/09/2024 22:14

Just when you think you’ve read it all, could not make this up.

I do slightly bristle when I read the philosophical belief rationale. I get that it’s one of the protected characteristics for any legal challenge, but I do just want to scream - it’s actual facts not beliefs!!

TempestTost · 18/09/2024 22:33

RaspberryParade · 18/09/2024 19:50

For those trying again to make it a left/right thing, this is not America.
Most of the fightback comes from left wing women, this has been the case for years.
The first to call it out were left wing lesbians in the 90s and in the news via Julie Bindel in 2004.
Moreover loads of that group have leftwing sympathies.
The authoritarians trying to suppress them, not so much.
Anyway this will develope further.

I mean - I assume here you are talking to the poster accusing groups like the FSU of being right wing and therefore dangerous?

Grammarnut · 18/09/2024 22:36

lifeturnsonadime · 18/09/2024 19:05

Yet another thread where bodies that allow free speech are deemed to be too right wing without the ‘left’ coming up with a viable alternative where free speech can be allowed.

I’m starting to really despair with the left. I’m naturally left leaning but they need to stop being so authoritarian when it comes to accommodating women who want to speak (ffs) about matters that affect us.

As Orwell pointed out, the left is no more in favour of free speech than the right. Authoritarian regimes of all colours want to censor what we are able to say. They particularly want to shut women up, because we tend to point out uncomfortable truths.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 18/09/2024 22:36

JoanDarc · 18/09/2024 22:14

Just when you think you’ve read it all, could not make this up.

I do slightly bristle when I read the philosophical belief rationale. I get that it’s one of the protected characteristics for any legal challenge, but I do just want to scream - it’s actual facts not beliefs!!

Agreed. I was incredulous when I heard that was going to be Maya's defence, but her legal team knew what they were about. It does still rankle, though.

TempestTost · 18/09/2024 22:39

IwantToRetire · 18/09/2024 21:16

Cant be bothered to quote the exact words that gender critical beliefs / sex based rights are being exploited by the right wing. Just such an infantile remarkd.

Strangely enough most people live their lifes totally free of constantly thinking is this in line with my political party.

So when basic rights are being undermined any number of people for slightly different reasons will think it is wrong and vocalise this. And sometimes even organise.

This is not about the right wing exploiting. As in most instances, if their is anything right wing about FSU it only seems that because the left stays silent.

It is the absence of any public display of suppport for gender critical politics, let alone women's sex based rights, that might is some casual unthoughtout way say its been hijacked by the right.

It hasn't.

The actual problem is the self absorbed anti woman left that is so busy inflating their importance to each other, that they dont actually do anything for ordinary members of the public, particularly women.

There is no right wing bias.

There is no co-option by the right wing.

There is only the cowardly, lack of support and public backing by the left of women and the erasure of their rights by gender politics.

Yes, exactly. They aren't exploiting it, they believe what they are saying.

What's more, unlike a lot of the left, they are quite happy to try and convince people on all sides of politics of their argument, and to work toward concrete goals with people whom they agree with only on specific subjects.

That's not exploitation, it's how politics, and society as a whole, can function to get things done.

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 22:41

Grammarnut · 18/09/2024 22:36

As Orwell pointed out, the left is no more in favour of free speech than the right. Authoritarian regimes of all colours want to censor what we are able to say. They particularly want to shut women up, because we tend to point out uncomfortable truths.

As a life long left voter. I am certain the left is far more authoritarian than the right. The right welcomes storing diverse views and is stronger for it.

wrong think - that belongs to the left.

Grammarnut · 18/09/2024 22:47

TorghunKhan · 18/09/2024 22:41

As a life long left voter. I am certain the left is far more authoritarian than the right. The right welcomes storing diverse views and is stronger for it.

wrong think - that belongs to the left.

Totally agree with you. The left is more authoritarian. It is the left which thinks one should be 'forced to be free' and also punishes wrong-think with expulsion. The right - in our case the Tories - are a much broader church. When Labour was more allied to Methodism it was also a broader church - albeit misogynist in various ways. That connection broken, the left (and Labour) are much too fond of telling us what we must do and think, and finding ways to stop us doing things they disagree with, whether it's smoking, eating Big Macs (no worse than a pret a manger sandwich for calories and stuff that's bad for you), or thinking that sex matters.

duc748 · 18/09/2024 23:14

if their is anything right wing about FSU it only seems that because the left stays silent.

Surely not really, @IwantToRetire ? Toby Young is pretty right-wing himself, and a not very pleasant character in a lot of ways. Doesn't mean he's wrong about everything, though. Absolutely agree with the rest of your post, though.

AutumnCrow · 18/09/2024 23:24

DworkinWasRight · 18/09/2024 21:44

I’m quite impressed by the number of ways Chrstinapple finds to be wrong - there’s a new one every time.

Is it something to do with the Guinness Book of Records? Maybe there’s a Blue Peter badge riding on it.

EdgeOfSixty · 18/09/2024 23:38

@Christinapple
Oh I knew you would have to pop up on this thread. What a surprise!
Most people in the UK don't believe in gender woo woo.

Buffypaws · 18/09/2024 23:48

Yer man on X has reposted some of the case law for those who are saying you can eject someone for any reason you like
x.com/michaelpforan/status/1836421273607422002?s=46&t=R8lbgugSDFu9UAWd3OTT3w

IwantToRetire · 18/09/2024 23:57

Toby Young is pretty right-wing

That's is only relevant if you think the FSU (despite its stated purpose) is just about what he wants or does.

Without repeating myself, but just to say, having a shared believe about free speech is the function of the FSU.

Abortion campaigning was mostly done by leftish groups. But the campaign was broadbased because the issue is.

I dont think at the time, or even later, anyone said, the UK has only got abortion rights because the left wing wanted it.

So unless you have evidence that TY is manipulating the FSU to only protest in a right wing way, absolutely not an issue.

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