Free Speech Union meeting evicted from Brighton pub

[raspb]

I don't think there's already a thread on this. Apologies if so. I just read this report on Julie Birchill's Facebook page:

Laura King writes:

Whole Free Speech Union meeting evicted from the Southern Belle pub tonight after only one speaker.

Scandalous. Will be covered by Brighton and Hove News.

Police report just filed.

We had a pre-booked meeting in the rear of the pub, almost completely screened off from the rest of the pub - on a quiet Tuesday evening - for an evening of speeches on various topics.
After 15 minutes or so of the first speaker - a retired teacher - discussing her concerns about child safeguarding in schools, a number of security guards appeared. I went to talk to them and see what the problem was. They wouldn't be specific but asked that I talked to the Landlord. I spoke to a tall young man who looked to be in his early 20s who didn't seem like the landlord and explained that a former teacher was talking about child safeguarding in schools. He didn't say much and I pointed out the speaker giving the talk was LGBT herself, if they were worried about any offence being caused and that we were not there to cause offence. I thought I had dealt with the situation but within a few minutes there was a rush of security guards coming into the room and demanding that we left. I said we had just finished listening to that speech and that there were two more on completely different subjects but they said the Landlord had said we had to leave. One of them tried to grab the speaker and drag it out of the room, which was still plugged in. I tried to stop him pointing out it was my property and he had no right to touch it or damage it. He grabbed my wrist hard and still tried to seize the speaker. I shouted at him that he was assaulting me and I was going to report him to the Police and he let me go. My partner got hustled out of the room physically and they tried to take his drink off him when he left to go and try and find the manager. Various people were in shock and we refused to leave and politely debated with the security guards, who kept insisting we had to leave, even though it was a public house and we are the public, and there had been no incidents, which the security guards freely admitted was true. in fact one even said he had 'better things to do on a Tuesday night than break up a room of mostly middle-aged people NOT causing any trouble.' We stood our ground for a few minutes while many people taped and filmed the exchanges with Paragon Security. A few people tried to ring the Police but then found out they were refusing to come out. 'Hate speech' was mentioned by a Security guard so I challenged him to prove his allegation and pointed out the room was actually full of intelligent peace-loving people, not haters. Plus there were many LGBT individuals in the audience not being offended. Most of us insisted on finishing our drinks before leaving and then people hung about outside as they couldn't believe what had just happened marvelling to each other that they no longer lived in a free country. The local media was contacted. Someone had shouted out 'Let's go to The Wick' but when we got there Paragon Security were already there and denying admission. This is double harassment of innocent individuals, who were not even trying to have a meeting at this point, but just socialising because it was far too early to call it a night and go home. So if the landlord of The Southern Belle had us evicted, what right did that landlord have to prevent us being admitted to another pub? This counts as harassment by the Southern Belle management via Paragon Security twice over.

Not really, no. It's both a case of a private company providing a good or service that a customer is paying for.

Yep. 'If women don't want to be assaulted or abused, they should stay at home and not go out in public'

Here you go, @Christinapple - this is your kind of society, presumably?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0m0v99pd3vo

But the FSU backs anyone who is discriminated over their views. It doesn't just support right-wingers. Toby Young, who founded FSU, is pretty right-wing, but the organisation is not.

This is happening tomorrow and includes someone from Women's Rights Network! https://freespeechunion.org/event/belfast-speakeasy-why-free-speech-matters-more-than-ever/

Have also posted on thread about court case against pub in Belfast.

Someone asked on another thread why do we let it derail and upend.
its a good question.

and there had been no incidents, which the security guards freely admitted was true. in fact one even said he had 'better things to do on a Tuesday night than break up a room of mostly middle-aged people NOT causing any trouble.'

Sums up the stupidity and absurdity of the situation.

Pub should be renamed ‘Southern Bell End’

Right up their alley.

Puppylucky consider that this establishment and others in B&H appear to have a private security co on speed dial if they feel they want to call the heavies in. Sad times. I worked in sy in the 80's at a popular bar in The Lanes, but on my own, not mob handed! I truly hope you will think about what has gone on here b4 patronising the place again.

Did you actually go back to the pub after being unbanned, @POWNewcastleEastWallsend ?

I'm just being nosy.

Not without taking precautions.

I did not receive any apology from the pub for what they had put me and other members of the ukulele session through so I was very concerned that I would be made to feel unwelcome, or worse.

We have a Summer Break from ukulele sessions and took the opportunity to discuss whether we would relocate due both to the behaviour of the pub and the despised "gender neutral" Ladies Toilets. Some members wanted to move, others didn't like the idea of change after we have been meeting there for so many years. The dealbreaker was that key members have mobility issues and we could not find a suitable alternative venue (car parking close by with level access to the pub plus downstairs "music room" and toilets).

I was anxious that when we went back that management or staff might fabricate a reason to ban me, eg. by pretending that I said something provocative to them. For my protection, a couple of members offered to accompany me to the bar when I went to order a drink and to go with me when I walk my dog during the interval half way through the session.

In the meantime, I have had the opportunity to go back several times as a friend has started running a music session a couple of nights a month and I know most of the other players who attend. However, I did not want to involve other people unnecessarily so I have given that session a miss since all this blew up.

Our first ukulele session since the banning and the unbanning was this week. When I went to the bar to get a drink one of my ukulele friends hovered by to keep an eye on things.

The landlady was serving and was friendly. As always, I asked if she would like "one for herself". I always offer a to buy drink for whoever is serving (unless it happens to be someone curt) but every time between the May 7th "WDI Hoodie Incident" and the Banning the staff had pointedly declined.

The Landlady declined but in a very friendly way so I said, "No hard feelings?" shook her hand and she smiled and agreed.

I am hoping that this signals the end to all this. Maybe she has actually looked at the WDI and Party of Women websites and discovered that we are not actually Nazis who want to genocide trans people or whatever it was that her "trans staff" had told her? 🤷‍♀️

AutumnCrow - back in the '80's I always used to go on Wednesdays for what we called "The Diddly Diddly Night" - astonishingly there is no emoji for the Northumbrian Pipes so I will have to make do with a fiddle! 🎻 😎

You and SinnerBoy - the ukulele session is on the 1st and 3rd Tuesday every month, 1pm - 3pm. (Sundays TBC). Pop along and I'll buy you both a pint 👍

🍻

POWNewcastleEastWallsend · Today 06:54

What a kind offer, thanks very much!

Glad it's been ok @POWNewcastleEastWallsend , hopefully they've realised how unreasonable they were being!

The Free Speech Union report with a video

freespeechunion.org/free-speech-union-sister-group-kicked-out-of-brighton-pub-after-saying-children-shouldnt-be-taught-trans-ideology/?fbclid=IwY2xjawFaBsNleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHR0JMM42PhzdRrQ7d0pBOU9qRdgDLWdntq1aSbbboc6zbJ5WZmWDkrmoyQ_aem_F7w7vMMLU56pDCqPx7Amlw

I'd love to meet both of you one day!

I live out in the sticks now but a close friend lives in Wallsend so a visit's always on the cards.

Internally holding a view and vocally evangelising it in public are two different activities. Like it is perfectly legal to be a racist and have racist beliefs, but evangelising those racist beliefs in public is illegal hate speech.

The protected belief protects freedom of belief/thought not speech.

The group was unfortunately treated like Tommy Robinson and his mates would have been if they’d prebooked a free speech meeting and then had a speech about how immigration and asylum seekers are out of control and concerning.

AutumnCrow · Today 10:59

Oh, I didn't know you were from round here!

My wife plays the uke, not very well. She is at work till late afternoon on Tuesdays, but I might suggest a visit to her.

LoremIpsumCici · Today 11:19

Internally holding a view and vocally evangelising it in public are two different activities. Like it is perfectly legal to be a racist and have racist beliefs, but evangelising those racist beliefs in public is illegal hate speech.

You must have missed the last two years of legal cases, where it has been established quite thoroughly that holding and speaking on the subject of sex realism is protected free speech and Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society.

There was no hate speech, you cannot decide unilaterally, against the tide of settled legal rulings, that talking about this is hate speech. Well, you can believe it and say it if you wish, but it's on a par with saying that the Earth is flat.

Perhaps I have missed legal cases. Can you refer me to them?

'Needless to say, the FSU will be writing to the owners of the Southern Belle, threatening legal action unless the group receives an apology and is allowed to rebook the meeting.

Our understanding is the group was kicked out of the pub because the landlord disapproved of the speaker’s belief in the biological reality of sex. That belief is a protected characteristic within section 10 of the Equality Act 2010. Under section 29 of that Act service-providers are required not to discriminate in the provision of services because of a person’s protected characteristic.
As well as constituting a breach of the Equality Act, the landlord’s actions constitute a breach of the common law duty laid out in the case of Constantine v Imperial Hotels Limited ([1944] KB 693, [1944] 2 All ER 171), which holds that an innkeeper has an implied tortious duty to receive and entertain guests unless there is just cause to refuse.'

You could possibly be more wrong; but it would be tricky.

Nope. This is unmitigated pish, I'm afraid.

'Gender critical' views have been tested against the Grainger principles and found WORIADS.

Hate speech is not WORIADS.

I've also posted the relevant parts of the HRA upthread wrt Freedom of Expression etc.

Thank you Arabella, however what if the landlord was not objecting to the belief itself, but the content of the speech as being transphobic and stirring up hate? As I posted before, the fact a belief is protected doesn’t mean you can then say anything and everything. Free speech only goes so far. I wonder if the first speaker’s speech is published anywhere? Or a video of it?

I am just trying to understand what happened and to consider the many possibilities.

I mean to say, if there is a case that they were legally exercising free speech then that surely is dependent on what they were saying? Not on their personally held beliefs.

Ah, so you must be familiar with these previously mentioned legal cases that outline the boundaries of protected speech?
Can you refer me to them? So far the info posted has been in relation to protected belief, not speech.