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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

1000 replies

TheSandgroper · 17/09/2024 07:29

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

'Are you accusing me of having Nazi links?': Secret recording played at Victorian Liberals defamation trial

A Victorian court hears a recording of a meeting between then-Liberal MP Moira Deeming and senior party figures, including Opposition Leader John Pesutto.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2024 11:12

Here's what she said immediately afterwards:

Disappointed with @VictoriaPolice, who let a bunch of masked men into the LWS buffer zone, terrifying women who were just trying to speak about their rights. Police managed to stop hordes of TRAs, but somehow could only walk masked men past us they did a horrible Nazi salute

https://x.com/moiradeemingmp/status/1636986783367073794?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:12

I'm interested in the trial from the perspective of "unproven" and understanding what happened. I don't think uncritical support of anyone on the basis they are gender critical is a good thing, in fact I think this trial shows some of the possible consequences. Uncritical support of all gender critical people ends up taking one down some very dark tunnels (e.g. going on podcasts with extreme right wingers like Carl Benjamin and expecting everyone else to be fine with that. Even though he makes derogatory comments about raping women 🤮)

LongtailedTitmouse · 19/09/2024 11:12

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:03

OK so you aren't interested in waiting to see what a judge thinks before deciding yourself. In which case why follow the trial?

Given your enthusiasm to spread it, you do not seem to be worried about waiting.

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:14

LongtailedTitmouse · 19/09/2024 11:12

Given your enthusiasm to spread it, you do not seem to be worried about waiting.

Pardon?
I've said I don't know what the outcome of the trial would be and haven't stated any opinion, other than to say I didn't hear Pesutto say anything I'd consider to be defamatory in that meeting audio.

You are the one saying he continued to be defamatory. What specifically did he say that made you think that?

lifeturnsonadime · 19/09/2024 11:14

Do you ever comment on the nasty associations of gender ideologists I wonder? I’m just not sure I’ve seen you do that?

LongtailedTitmouse · 19/09/2024 11:15

Given these neo Nazi men turned up at a protest organised by Trans activists surely the link is with them?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2024 11:16

Moira's press release after the event

PRESS RELEASE
MOIRA DEEMING
LIBERAL MP – WESTERN METROPOLITAN REGION
Personal statement:
I have been informed that there will be a vote in the Liberal Party room to determine whether I should be allowed to remain or be expelled from the Parliamentary Party.
Let me clear – I have done nothing wrong. Those who organised the Let Women Speak event on the weekend have done nothing wrong.
Despite this, a select few members of the Liberal leadership team have condemned me unjustly.
This is an inflection point for the Liberal Party in Victoria. There are two paths the Party must choose from.
Does it accept the utterly false premise that anyone who chooses to speak out reasonably, constructively, and legally is somehow an endorsement for anyone at all who happens to show up at a public event? Are we truly suggesting that we let Daniel Andrews decide the rules about who is attached to and responsible for who? This from a Premier whose own Party was found to have rorted the tax payer over the scandalous red shirts affair and yet apparently has nothing to do with it and bears no responsibility or accountability for it.
Or will the Liberal Party choose this moment to draw a line in the sand and stand on our principles. I believe that Victorians want us as Liberals to stand up to the bullying from Daniel Andrews. They've had enough of the spin and the slander. And enough of women and girls being silenced about the extraordinary challenges we face.
My intention is to fight and to remain a member of the team. I hope that my colleagues draw the line and say enough, and that I am able to fight alongside them. I hope that when I have the opportunity to present the facts as they occurred, that my colleagues will stand on principle and vote down the motion to have me expelled.
Background statement:
On Saturday 18th of March, I attended the ‘Let Women Speak’ event hosted by ‘Standing For Women UK’ (SFW).
SFW advocates for the reinstatement of reasonable biological-sex based rights and against the irreversible and harmful medical transitioning practices used on gender non-conforming, autistic and gay minors.
This organisation and its goals are mainstream and global, supported by high profile members and leaders of every mainstream political party in the world.
The Melbourne “Let Women Speak” event was attended by Muslims, Christians, Atheists and members of the Greens, Labor, LDP and Liberal Parties. I announced on International Women’s Day, in Parliament that I’d be in attendance and invited Natalie Hutchins to join me, because she is the Minister for Women.
Due to threats of violence from extreme left activists including the notorious Antifa, I was approached and asked if I could drive international speaker Kelly Jay and her security guards to park in Parliament House car park, for safer passage to and from the Parliament House steps. I sought and gained permission from Parliament services to do so.
The event was very ably organised by Angela Jones, a left-wing, pro-gay rights Jewish woman, who liaised with Victoria Police to arrange a buffer zone between her event and any counter protestors.
This is why I and the other attendees were horrified to see masked men all clad in black inside the buffer zone. We thought that we were going to be attacked. However, the police did not seem worried and were talking with them over at the edge of the line.
Later I saw the police seemingly usher these men right through the centre of the buffer zone in between our event and the counter protestors, which is when I saw those men raise their hands in a Hitler salute.
I, along with the few others who were facing them from the front were horrified, but relieved that the police were moving them on.

After the event I was informed that these masked men had in fact mounted Parliament House steps outside of our view on the other end and performed a Nazi salute, and that members of the SFW group asked the police to make them leave, but were informed that the Police had no powers to move them on due to Labor’s removal of those powers.
The Let Women Speak event saw several women injured by the extreme left counter protestors who infiltrated the event. I was assaulted and injured, along with multiple other women, including one who was taken to hospital after being knocked unconscious. They also became violent with police and punched police horses, forcing the event to finish early. I condemn their actions, and call on others to condemn this violence against peaceful women.
I also condemn of the actions of the masked men in black who were later identified as Neo-Nazis, who gate-crashed the Let Women Speak event. Most of the LWS supporters did not realise who they were until they were being escorted out by Victoria Police, when they did the despicable Nazi salute.
I completely reject the beliefs of National Socialists (Nazis) and I have seen first-hand the impact that the Holocaust had on a family member.
None of those organising the event had any involvement with these men, as has been confirmed by Victoria Police, the Australian Jewish Association and all the organisers themselves.
If Daniel Andrews had not repealed the ‘move on’ laws, they could have been removed. The ‘move on’ laws need to be strengthened and I also welcome moves to ban the Nazi salute.
And I hope that the concerns of women and girls will finally be deemed worthy of attention.
2/2

x.com/moiradeemingmp/status/1637691028554813443?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

x.com/moiradeemingmp/status/1637691108280143873?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/09/2024 11:18

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 10:03

It shouldn’t have any impact on the defamation case at all. Nor would it have been an issue for her selection for the electorate. The Liberal Party has always had a few candidates that were personally against abortion completely.

She said last year that she was not interested in removing other women’s rights to access abortion though. As she has stated she respects other women’s choices in regards to this and is not as a Victorian MP making this an issue she is platforming, it is not something relevant to her party membership or this case.

Thanks for this Helleofabore. The continued policing of women and our right to hold our own opinions and views is not only tedious but very reminiscent of the old misogynistic Victorian values - women and children may be seen but not heard. 🙄

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:18

lifeturnsonadime · 19/09/2024 11:14

Do you ever comment on the nasty associations of gender ideologists I wonder? I’m just not sure I’ve seen you do that?

Yes, all the time in real life.
I don't feel the need to comment on here because usually much more erudite feminists have already made the points I would. I only comment when I think I can add something relevant (or if I see another poster getting pasted for a point I agree with, I hate that).

That probably does come across as "disagreement" but it really isn't.

Ideally I'd like an open minded conversation about this trial as noone I know irl will be discussing it. I'm interested though.

It's entirely possible to think the Party could have treated Deeming badly and think Pesutto wasn't defamatory.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2024 11:19

Thanks for this Helleofabore. The continued policing of women and our right to hold our own opinions and views is not only tedious but very reminiscent of the old misogynistic Victorian values - women and children may be seen but not heard.

It is.

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:20

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/09/2024 11:18

Thanks for this Helleofabore. The continued policing of women and our right to hold our own opinions and views is not only tedious but very reminiscent of the old misogynistic Victorian values - women and children may be seen but not heard. 🙄

It is not "policing" for a woman to state her own contradictory values and boundaries. It is the opposite in fact Confused

lifeturnsonadime · 19/09/2024 11:24

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:18

Yes, all the time in real life.
I don't feel the need to comment on here because usually much more erudite feminists have already made the points I would. I only comment when I think I can add something relevant (or if I see another poster getting pasted for a point I agree with, I hate that).

That probably does come across as "disagreement" but it really isn't.

Ideally I'd like an open minded conversation about this trial as noone I know irl will be discussing it. I'm interested though.

It's entirely possible to think the Party could have treated Deeming badly and think Pesutto wasn't defamatory.

Can you see how you come across?

That your scrutiny is reserved for women who you disapprove of, particularly ones who hold gender critical beliefs?

On a thread like this if you were balanced in your view you might consider scrutinising the men who tried to end a woman’s career for ‘wrong think’.

Or are you saying you keep those thoughts in your head or you might discuss those irl?

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 11:26

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:04

I think I quite clearly said that I was talking about the impact on me as a feminist, not the defamation case And the articles show it was controversial at the time.

Why ask what the controversy is, if you are then going to dismiss the answer or misrepresent it? It doesn't make people want to engage.

Edited

Sorry? Can you tell me what you are referring to? I asked Messinabloom what they believed was Moira Deeming’s beliefs that put her on the ‘edge’ of the Liberal Party and at the national level as opposed to Pesutto’s decree as to what the Liberal Party parliamentary membership should be based on, and who said that her beliefs were ‘on the edge’ so we could evaluate that information.

messinabloom clarified that it was their own opinion as far as I can tell. Because what was linked doesn’t support that the federal Liberal Party thought this about Moira Deeming. If Messinabloom has more to add, they should do so. Because it would be a rather significant point if the federal executive was saying any such thing.

Or am I misrepresenting Moira Deeming's views in my post to lifeturnsonadime? How have I misrepresented Moira Deeming’s views?

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 11:30

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/09/2024 11:18

Thanks for this Helleofabore. The continued policing of women and our right to hold our own opinions and views is not only tedious but very reminiscent of the old misogynistic Victorian values - women and children may be seen but not heard. 🙄

Well MrsO, from the articles that have been linked on these last couple of pages even, it seems that Moira was selected while the party not only knew about her stance on women and children’s rights and abortion , she replaced a person who was pro-life.

There is something of a disconnect happening in this thread. And it does seem that the more information the better for context here.

NotBadConsidering · 19/09/2024 11:59

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 11:12

I'm interested in the trial from the perspective of "unproven" and understanding what happened. I don't think uncritical support of anyone on the basis they are gender critical is a good thing, in fact I think this trial shows some of the possible consequences. Uncritical support of all gender critical people ends up taking one down some very dark tunnels (e.g. going on podcasts with extreme right wingers like Carl Benjamin and expecting everyone else to be fine with that. Even though he makes derogatory comments about raping women 🤮)

I'm interested in the trial from the perspective of "unproven" and understanding what happened

But only because it involved KJK. You said that yourself. Bottom of page 4. Did you forget? Worth reminding the casual reader I think.

And you think it’s nothing more than a “twitter spat in court😂”. But now you’re interested in the “unproven”. If this had been a rally without KJK I doubt you’d be interested. The facts of what happened at the event are not disputed. Are you hoping it reveals something about KJK you can use, given her involvement is what you’re interested in? Do you care about Deeming and how she’s been treated at all?

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 12:14

Im going to answer the question against my better judgement.

I'm interested in the case. Like many of the threads on here and on Twitter, it seems to revolve around whether or not it's accurate to describe KJK/Angie Jones as linked to Nazis. "Linked/associated" are vague terms so I don't think that's a slam dunk question. Pesutto's apology to them also didn't back down from associations- just softened it to "loose" associations e.g. sharing a platform.

If the court decides it is a reasonable statement to say KJK is linked, I can't see how Pesutto loses. But I was wrong about Depp and fucking Ched Evans so that's partly why I'm interested.

W.r.t. Deeming, I don't feel sorry for her leaving the party listening to the audio. That's a choice she made. I do feel very sorry for her that she's had such hostility on social media, however I think that's more to do with KJK/TRAs than Pesutto so I can't see what it has to do with the case. The neo-Nazi salute and the sharing of that by TRAs is what caused the damage imo.

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 12:19

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 11:26

Sorry? Can you tell me what you are referring to? I asked Messinabloom what they believed was Moira Deeming’s beliefs that put her on the ‘edge’ of the Liberal Party and at the national level as opposed to Pesutto’s decree as to what the Liberal Party parliamentary membership should be based on, and who said that her beliefs were ‘on the edge’ so we could evaluate that information.

messinabloom clarified that it was their own opinion as far as I can tell. Because what was linked doesn’t support that the federal Liberal Party thought this about Moira Deeming. If Messinabloom has more to add, they should do so. Because it would be a rather significant point if the federal executive was saying any such thing.

Or am I misrepresenting Moira Deeming's views in my post to lifeturnsonadime? How have I misrepresented Moira Deeming’s views?

I mentioned abortion, not mess so I assumed life was referring to me. When she brought up reproductive rights that you replied to, in the post I quoted.

Being "pro life" is controversial to a lot of people and also unrelated to GC beliefs so I can believe Deeming was already a controversial politician before this.

NotBadConsidering · 19/09/2024 12:27

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 12:14

Im going to answer the question against my better judgement.

I'm interested in the case. Like many of the threads on here and on Twitter, it seems to revolve around whether or not it's accurate to describe KJK/Angie Jones as linked to Nazis. "Linked/associated" are vague terms so I don't think that's a slam dunk question. Pesutto's apology to them also didn't back down from associations- just softened it to "loose" associations e.g. sharing a platform.

If the court decides it is a reasonable statement to say KJK is linked, I can't see how Pesutto loses. But I was wrong about Depp and fucking Ched Evans so that's partly why I'm interested.

W.r.t. Deeming, I don't feel sorry for her leaving the party listening to the audio. That's a choice she made. I do feel very sorry for her that she's had such hostility on social media, however I think that's more to do with KJK/TRAs than Pesutto so I can't see what it has to do with the case. The neo-Nazi salute and the sharing of that by TRAs is what caused the damage imo.

It seems to revolve around whether or not it's accurate to describe KJK/Angie Jones as linked to Nazis. "Linked/associated" are vague terms so I don't think that's a slam dunk question

It all come out on this thread hasn’t it? You know they’re not. But you want them to be. Angie Jones is Jewish FFS. But you think it’s not clear if there’s any accuracy to any vague links? The mask slips more and more each day.

LongtailedTitmouse · 19/09/2024 12:27

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 12:23

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/sep/19/moira-deeming-defamation-trial-john-pesutto-neo-nazis-ntwnfb

I don't think her deciding to sue for defamation immediately after the meeting was her most effective plan, or sharing that with a Sky journalist Confused

Fortunately she has sought advice from a foremost defamation lawyer rather than you.

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 12:28

CassieMaddox · 19/09/2024 12:19

I mentioned abortion, not mess so I assumed life was referring to me. When she brought up reproductive rights that you replied to, in the post I quoted.

Being "pro life" is controversial to a lot of people and also unrelated to GC beliefs so I can believe Deeming was already a controversial politician before this.

I was answering lifeturnsonadime. I was not directing my answer to you.

"so I can believe Deeming was already a controversial politician before this."

Sure, you can believe that all you want. However, you don't seem to know much about Australian politics. You call her a 'controversial politician' on the back of her beliefs, which you disagree with. But she has stated clearly that these are personal beliefs and she is not acting on them as an elected politician. She was elected by her constituents who didn't have to look far to find out what her personal views are on topics.

It could be argued whether she is a feminist or not with that view. Have at it. But controversial as a politician? I don't think that having a personal view and not acting on it as a representative member makes her a controversial politician. Obviously, you have a different opinion as an outsider to Australian politics and you are welcome to express it.

Just as people are just as welcome to point out where and why they disagree with you.

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 12:30

LongtailedTitmouse · 19/09/2024 12:27

Fortunately she has sought advice from a foremost defamation lawyer rather than you.

I know. I am hoping to at least listen to Sue in action.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/09/2024 12:30

It’s behind a paywall.

Helleofabore · 19/09/2024 12:32

Considering Moira had already been discussing defamation with lawyers on another issue, why wouldn't she start discussing it as soon as she felt she might need it?

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