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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

1000 replies

TheSandgroper · 17/09/2024 07:29

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

'Are you accusing me of having Nazi links?': Secret recording played at Victorian Liberals defamation trial

A Victorian court hears a recording of a meeting between then-Liberal MP Moira Deeming and senior party figures, including Opposition Leader John Pesutto.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 13:01

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 12:50

It's not a claim. It's an observation based on posts overnight and posters responses. Some but not all of those posts are yours.

My observation is that when people characterise others perspectives as "superficial" they are implying they have superior knowledge that should be deferred to.

In any case its a bit odd as I was actually pointing out the analysis of others on the thread Confused

This for example Why is it never asked by posters like you why the left like Labor and the Greens are so ineffectual and indifferent to protecting women’s rights? is almost verbatim what posters said about any left leaning feminists in the run up to the GE. It is striking.

I do have more knowledge on the Australian political system compared to you. And enough of a working knowledge of the UK political system to be able to say to you that they are not identical the way you tried to claim, which was open ended at first before you narrowed it down.

I don’t expect any person to ‘defer’ to me. That again seems like some kind of absolutist view.

If you have something to contribute, then you are in the right spot. Post away. And if people disagree and explain why, then they are welcome to do so too.

No one needs to ‘defer’ to anyone. No one needs to agree with anyone.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 13:01

Like, wtf was Renee Heath thinking emailing the notes when she'd been directly asked not to? Why did Deeming try to reassure Pesutto by saying the press had shut up about her maiden speech since she threatened to sue them? Why did she think a political journalist was an appropriate "mentor"?

There are a lot of very weird decisions being exposed

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 13:04

Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 13:01

I do have more knowledge on the Australian political system compared to you. And enough of a working knowledge of the UK political system to be able to say to you that they are not identical the way you tried to claim, which was open ended at first before you narrowed it down.

I don’t expect any person to ‘defer’ to me. That again seems like some kind of absolutist view.

If you have something to contribute, then you are in the right spot. Post away. And if people disagree and explain why, then they are welcome to do so too.

No one needs to ‘defer’ to anyone. No one needs to agree with anyone.

I didn't "try to claim" anything. I posted my observation, clearly signposted as such following your "feedback" yesterday about appropriate communication styles. Turns out that wasn't the problem. The problem is me expressing any kind of opinion/observation that you disagree with.

It makes for a boring conversation so excuse me if I don't respond to your reams of questions today

Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 13:06

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 13:04

I didn't "try to claim" anything. I posted my observation, clearly signposted as such following your "feedback" yesterday about appropriate communication styles. Turns out that wasn't the problem. The problem is me expressing any kind of opinion/observation that you disagree with.

It makes for a boring conversation so excuse me if I don't respond to your reams of questions today

Good to know. Thank you for telling me.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 13:06

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 13:00

I hope so. It's like everyone's under a spell where they repeat the same phrases over and over, utterly convinced they're right in their opinion.

Yes that's exactly it.
I feel a bit conflicted for willingly stepping into the drama triangle though 😂 but unfortunately I don't think many people outside this board want to discuss the trial.

Cailleach1 · 22/09/2024 13:13

Imnobody4 · 21/09/2024 23:14

Statements from Women’s Forum Australia

1.Member of the Victorian Legislative Council Moira Deeming has disgracefully been expelled from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party.

Her Crime? Standing up for herself, and for women and girls.

On 18 March 2023, Moira spoke at Kellie-Jay Keen’s Let Women Speak rally in Melbourne, organised to help raise awareness about the harmful impact of allowing biological males who say they’re women to self-identify into female-only spaces, services and sports, and the harms of gender ideology more broadly.

The event was gatecrashed by a group of men from the National Socialist Network who performed the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament. This was then used by Victorian Liberal Leader John Pesutto to accuse Moira (and other women) of associating with neo-Nazis or neo-Nazi sympathisers in order to swiftly move a motion to expel her from the party.

There not being enough support to expel Moira, who had done nothing wrong, the party voted to suspend her for nine months instead. This was a result that she only accepted because she had been assured that a joint media statement by herself and John Pesutto would be issued to clear her family’s name of Nazi slurs, making it clear that she is not a Nazi sympathiser. However, the joint statement was never made.

Six weeks later, Moira told John Pesutto that if he did not honour the terms of the suspension and publicly declare she was not a Nazi sympathiser, she would be forced to challenge the suspension and bring legal action. He refused, and five other MPs brought a second motion to expel Moira for “bringing discredit” on the party - though as with the original expulsion motion and suspension, the grounds are unclear.

On 12 May, Victorian Liberal MPs voted to expel Moira from the Parliamentary Liberal Party. They also voted to remove Renee Heath as Party Secretary, for her role in the original expulsion minutes, which John Pesutto did not approve of. Again, the grounds for Renee’s demotion are unclear. Both motions passed 19:11. A third motion was also moved by John Pesutto to introduce his own version of the original expulsion minutes, which passed with less support.

Moira has since issued John Pesutto with a defamation concerns notice, as a last resort to clear her name.

What has happened to Moira is gravely unjust. The lies, the lack of due process and the silencing are not only an attack on one woman, but on all the women and girls Moira represents. Moreover, it is an affront to all the Victorians who voted for her.

  1. The expulsion of Moira Deeming from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party is baseless and gravely unjust.

Rather than supporting a woman who spoke out to defend the rights and safety of women and girls, you have instead chosen to slander and punish her.

The intimidation and silencing of women who speak out about their sex-based needs and rights has recently been condemned by UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, who specifically rebuked the smearing of women as “Nazis” or “extremists”, and the sanctioning of female politicians by their political parties.

Ms Alsalem notes that such smear campaigns against women “are deeply troubling, as they are intended to instil fear in them, shame them into silence, and incite violence and hatred against them. Such acts severely affect the dignified participation of women and girls in society.”

Thank you for posting this. It is a helpful to see the issue plainly laid out. Do you know if there a link anywhere about the case, such as those by Tribunal Tweets? Or, failing that, a trustworthy and fair synopsis.

AlisonDonut · 22/09/2024 13:14

Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 12:29

Really? You find it unusual that people can move between countries?

Fuck. How about that, eh?

Weirdly I am Canadian, which I stated on here just a few weeks ago. So I'm guessing the spreadsheet has been cross referenced and this has been mentioned in order for me to accuse them of mentioning me, so that they can then respond that 'not everything is about you, Alison'.

So dull. And yes I do have close relatives in Canada, USA, UK, and Australia! And Papua New Guinea so that will need to go onto the database. Expect a sly dig about those in the coming weeks.

[Cue: database, what database, I don't keep a database, now you are just being paranoid].

Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 13:18

AlisonDonut · 22/09/2024 13:14

Weirdly I am Canadian, which I stated on here just a few weeks ago. So I'm guessing the spreadsheet has been cross referenced and this has been mentioned in order for me to accuse them of mentioning me, so that they can then respond that 'not everything is about you, Alison'.

So dull. And yes I do have close relatives in Canada, USA, UK, and Australia! And Papua New Guinea so that will need to go onto the database. Expect a sly dig about those in the coming weeks.

[Cue: database, what database, I don't keep a database, now you are just being paranoid].

Oh. Yes. I remember you saying. I wondered who was the Canadian being referred to.

I remember being interested in politics from a very young age. One of my teachers became our MP. … and funnily enough she became our next door neighbour too.

AlisonDonut · 22/09/2024 13:31

I was never interested in politics! Just music and art. I just take everyone as they come. Whoever they are. Until they display weird behaviours, in which case I just back away.

Anyway off to do some pottery and listen to some podcats of people I agree with, or don't agree with...who knows?

Imnobody4 · 22/09/2024 13:35

Cailleach1 · 22/09/2024 13:13

Thank you for posting this. It is a helpful to see the issue plainly laid out. Do you know if there a link anywhere about the case, such as those by Tribunal Tweets? Or, failing that, a trustworthy and fair synopsis.

Sorry there doesn't seem to be a TT equivalent. But the court transcripts are being published online

www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/deeming-v-pesutto

Have neither the strength or patience to read through them.
The court proceedings are being live streamed on You Tube (not available after so you have to watch live).
They obviously know this is an important case.
I find the attacks on the victim on this thread pretty appalling. I would have expected the accused to have been examined equally. But maybe in week 2 we'll turn the forensic examination into the man.

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 13:39

@Helleofabore

or the conference has offered the speaking spot on purpose to attract that sector of audience”

Is this something that I have said? Why is it highlighted?

“What are your thoughts on those situations, particularly the second?”

My thoughts? I think events with discussions are events with discussions. If a speaker is invited to speak about something that is not getting much air time on a country’s media, then it can be of interest to invite a speaker or a panel to speak at an event about that topic. Even better if the panel has speakers from opposing sides providing equal time is given to all speakers.

You didn't say write that statement - it was mine.
Of course, the best outcome would be that panels have speakers from all spectrums. That's the most thought-provoking and interesting. However, I find - and this does happen on all sides of the spectrum - that some panels and conferences only have speakers to attract a particular subset of audience. For example, a women's rights speaker at a far-right conference to drag women in. They have little interest per se in women's rights, just the women - as voters and paying members.

AlisonDonut · 22/09/2024 13:40

The ladies of Aus have a good X spaces discussion at the end of most of the days which is the best place to get the jist of it all. Certainly it is good to listen to them and their takes than do anything on here.

Helleofabore · 22/09/2024 13:43

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 13:39

@Helleofabore

or the conference has offered the speaking spot on purpose to attract that sector of audience”

Is this something that I have said? Why is it highlighted?

“What are your thoughts on those situations, particularly the second?”

My thoughts? I think events with discussions are events with discussions. If a speaker is invited to speak about something that is not getting much air time on a country’s media, then it can be of interest to invite a speaker or a panel to speak at an event about that topic. Even better if the panel has speakers from opposing sides providing equal time is given to all speakers.

You didn't say write that statement - it was mine.
Of course, the best outcome would be that panels have speakers from all spectrums. That's the most thought-provoking and interesting. However, I find - and this does happen on all sides of the spectrum - that some panels and conferences only have speakers to attract a particular subset of audience. For example, a women's rights speaker at a far-right conference to drag women in. They have little interest per se in women's rights, just the women - as voters and paying members.

Can I ask what are the far right conferences that would platform women in the way you suggest? Or is this theoretical?

BezMills · 22/09/2024 14:03

Blames Canada

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 15:04

AlisonDonut · 22/09/2024 13:14

Weirdly I am Canadian, which I stated on here just a few weeks ago. So I'm guessing the spreadsheet has been cross referenced and this has been mentioned in order for me to accuse them of mentioning me, so that they can then respond that 'not everything is about you, Alison'.

So dull. And yes I do have close relatives in Canada, USA, UK, and Australia! And Papua New Guinea so that will need to go onto the database. Expect a sly dig about those in the coming weeks.

[Cue: database, what database, I don't keep a database, now you are just being paranoid].

Actually I just remembered someone mentioned it but couldn't remember who. No need for spreadsheets! Just interesting how many people are completely confident in making assertions about different legal jurisdictions as if they are experts!

The paranoia is strong on here sometimes.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 15:08

Imnobody4 · 22/09/2024 13:35

Sorry there doesn't seem to be a TT equivalent. But the court transcripts are being published online

www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/deeming-v-pesutto

Have neither the strength or patience to read through them.
The court proceedings are being live streamed on You Tube (not available after so you have to watch live).
They obviously know this is an important case.
I find the attacks on the victim on this thread pretty appalling. I would have expected the accused to have been examined equally. But maybe in week 2 we'll turn the forensic examination into the man.

That's what happens in defamation trials. The onus is on the victim/complainant to prove the defendant didn't have an honest belief they were speaking the truth.

It's why defamation trials are different to other trials.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 15:12

What I'm finding really interesting is how unclear the "defamation" is.

In the Depp v. Heard trial it was very obvious precisely what line in what report was being challenged as defamatory.

In this one, all I can find is reference to "67 imputations" with not much clarity about when and what was said.

It makes it hard to follow.

Cailin66 · 22/09/2024 16:08

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 11:19

Yep. His defence is she had decided she was going to sue him very quickly, so therefore anything he said would not be received well.
I'm not a lawyer but surely if she had decided she was suing before he made the statements she says are defamatory that's relevant.

Are you making up stuff now?

Also he's already had to apologise for what he said to KJK. Now he's in court he's going to rewrite history, to suit himself and his quest for power. Well let's see how the court decides. It's clear to me he is way too quick to attack someone just because they know biological sex is real. And that men cannot become women.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 16:23

I just read her affidavit from May, which is like Swiss cheese with redacted paras withdrawn after her testimony.

Anyway, on Pg35 para 174 (for those who need precise lines) she testifies:

On 25 March 2023, Mr Pesutto published an article about me entitled "Decency and diversity must unite us". Amongst other things, in that article, Mr Pesutto wrote: "Nazis have no place in our community and those who share platforms with or associate with extremist groups, including neo-Nazi activists, have no place in the Liberal Party." I hadn't seen this article at the time and have only discovered and read it recently. When I read it, I thought Mr Pesutto was directly saying that I shared platforms with and associated with extremist groups, including neo-Nazi activists, and that is why I was being expelled from the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party as having no place in it.

The wording in this is strikingly similar to his "apology" to KJK

I do not believe that it is appropriate to knowingly associate or share platforms with individuals who hold or express these extremist views. I also believe that there is no room to be blithe or cavalier in the face of Neo-Nazism.

So I still don't think he admitted this was defamatory at all.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 16:27

Cailin66 · 22/09/2024 16:08

Are you making up stuff now?

Also he's already had to apologise for what he said to KJK. Now he's in court he's going to rewrite history, to suit himself and his quest for power. Well let's see how the court decides. It's clear to me he is way too quick to attack someone just because they know biological sex is real. And that men cannot become women.

Edited

No. I'm referring to what's being said in court, and my impressions of it, because I'm following the case.

Collins had evidence of her saying she was "moving to defamation" on 27th March

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/sep/19/moira-deeming-defamation-trial-john-pesutto-neo-nazis-ntwnfb

She says she hadn't read it at the time she claimed he was defaming her.

His "apology" to KJK uses the same language.

I'm not the judge but I can have an opinion on what's being presented on court. I'm going to be interested what the judge says about it.

Moira Deeming kept ‘Liberal party mentor’ Peta Credlin in the loop ‘at all times’ amid Nazi stoush, court hears

Trial shown messages between MP and Sky News host discussing defamation action against Victorian Liberal leader John Pesutto

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/sep/19/moira-deeming-defamation-trial-john-pesutto-neo-nazis-ntwnfb

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/09/2024 16:44

Do you think the leader of the Liberal Party John Pesutto having had to already apologies to one women* for smearing her as 'nazi' and 'extremist' would make some of us this side of the world think that Pesutto's got a bit of a woman issue. The women hatefully labeled by him are known for standing up for women's rights.

Two women. Angie Jones as well (she's Jewish Confused)

Cailleach1 · 22/09/2024 16:44

Imnobody4 · 22/09/2024 13:35

Sorry there doesn't seem to be a TT equivalent. But the court transcripts are being published online

www.fedcourt.gov.au/services/access-to-files-and-transcripts/online-files/deeming-v-pesutto

Have neither the strength or patience to read through them.
The court proceedings are being live streamed on You Tube (not available after so you have to watch live).
They obviously know this is an important case.
I find the attacks on the victim on this thread pretty appalling. I would have expected the accused to have been examined equally. But maybe in week 2 we'll turn the forensic examination into the man.

Thank you again. As much as I’d like to see it, the time difference would be too much for the live stream. There appears to have been very dodgy practices and underhand manoeuvrings going on within that party. It would appear, to the casual observer, that MD was hung, drawn and quartered by a kangaroo court on false pretences. Without fairness, balance, and right to defend herself.

Yes, it would appear quite a lot of time and effort is being spent on trying to smear the victim.

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 17:21

I posted someone live tweeting upthread - unfortunately they are pro trans, but the content appears accurate.

Commenting on the trial and what's coming out is not "a smear". People do have a right to a fair trial, it's a cornerstone of a free society.

I wouldn't want to preempt what the judge says but you can literally see how it's gone for Moira in court by looking at how much of her affidavit she's had to withdraw under examination. It's on the court documents link from page 5 or 6 of this thread.

I've screenshot the relevant pages which are about the key meeting to save you all the trouble.

As she decided to start defamation proceedings very shortly after this meeting, I think these retractions are quite damaging overall. Not sure why people are keen to avoid discussing that.

In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on
In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on
In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on
In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on
In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on
Imnobody4 · 22/09/2024 18:02

CassieMaddox · 22/09/2024 15:08

That's what happens in defamation trials. The onus is on the victim/complainant to prove the defendant didn't have an honest belief they were speaking the truth.

It's why defamation trials are different to other trials.

Yes dear I know that. That's why
Yesterday, his lawyers tried to suggest that any harm from defamation was reduced because when @elonmusk acquired Twitter, the platform lost a lot of respectable users. This meant the reach of Pesutto’s defamatory statements wasn’t as great.

Let's see what happens later.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/09/2024 18:06

Yesterday, his lawyers tried to suggest that any harm from defamation was reduced because when @elonmusk acquired Twitter, the platform lost a lot of respectable users.

It's funny that they all keep saying they're going to leave and flouncing but somehow all the holier than thou journalists etc are still there. None of the other platforms are as good and all the righteous know it.

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