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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

In Australia - Moira Deeming defamation trial now on

1000 replies

TheSandgroper · 17/09/2024 07:29

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

This is from our very TRA ABC. Please note the comment from “Mr Southwick, a Jewish MP re Angie Jones’ tweet”. Well, Angie Jones is as Jewish as they come but they don’t say that.

Also, for, those who don’t know, see Angie on m.youtube.com/@TERFTalkDownUnder, though she hasn’t posted for a while. Some really good interviews.

'Are you accusing me of having Nazi links?': Secret recording played at Victorian Liberals defamation trial

A Victorian court hears a recording of a meeting between then-Liberal MP Moira Deeming and senior party figures, including Opposition Leader John Pesutto.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-17/moira-deeming-john-pesutto-defamation-trial-day-two/104360100

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:40

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 20:30

I think you live a very sheltered life if you think criticising politicians and activists for their actions is "hate speech". And claiming women are responsible for male violence is a common feature of misogyny

https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

  1. Women are responsible for what men do.

The only person responsible for what happened today is the man that did it.

I wondered if you'd have the gall to respond to my post.

You really are a piece of work.

goldensyrupe · 21/09/2024 20:43

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:40

I wondered if you'd have the gall to respond to my post.

You really are a piece of work.

I can't believe in a feminist forum someone is blaming women for men's violence.

Datun · 21/09/2024 20:44

Boiledbeetle · 21/09/2024 20:33

The man who assaulted KJK

Incels, tossers, aggressive nut jobs - they all band together, don't they?

And Posie Parker is like a tinder box to them. A woman who doesn't give a flying fuck what they think, say or do.

The word contempt was invented for men like this

Datun · 21/09/2024 20:46

And this is why she gets so much support. She puts herself on the line. Time after time.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 20:47

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:40

I wondered if you'd have the gall to respond to my post.

You really are a piece of work.

Why? You accused me of hate speech. Am I supposed to ignore it? Would you ignore it if someone said that to you?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/09/2024 20:50

Datun · 21/09/2024 20:46

And this is why she gets so much support. She puts herself on the line. Time after time.

Edited

Yes, exactly.

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:53

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 20:47

Why? You accused me of hate speech. Am I supposed to ignore it? Would you ignore it if someone said that to you?

My post wasn't addressed to you and I never mentioned you.

But if the shoe fits...

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:54

Datun · 21/09/2024 20:46

And this is why she gets so much support. She puts herself on the line. Time after time.

Edited

It's also one of the reasons she drives them absolutely mental.

timenowplease · 21/09/2024 20:56

goldensyrupe · 21/09/2024 20:43

I can't believe in a feminist forum someone is blaming women for men's violence.

Have you never heard of incitement to violence?

RaspberryParade · 21/09/2024 21:06

Datun · 20/09/2024 21:03

It's too, too weird.

Comparing Posie Parker to fucking Ted Bundy?? 😱 to explain why she's soo fascinating!!? 😂

Women who support a woman who gives a public voice to hundreds and hundreds of women across the globe, is not the sa me as women who want to marry Ted Bundy!!

Edited

I missed that.
But what I was talking about is an obsessiveness that goes on forever.
And she isnt the only one.
Those who continuously argue with her are just as bad.
They should just all have a cage fight and stop turning threads into utter tedium and repetition for everyone else.

Imnobody4 · 21/09/2024 21:25

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 20:30

I think you live a very sheltered life if you think criticising politicians and activists for their actions is "hate speech". And claiming women are responsible for male violence is a common feature of misogyny

https://4w.pub/the-rules-of-misogyny/

  1. Women are responsible for what men do.

The only person responsible for what happened today is the man that did it.

Let's hope John Pesutto is held accountable for his defamation of Moira. He is well aware of the propensity for violence among TRAs. He saw what happened in New Zealand. Let's hold a powerful man to account instead of a woman expressing her opinions. That would be novel.

JanesLittleGirl · 21/09/2024 22:16

I kinda get the impression that there is no crime that is worse than being 'KJK adjacent '.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 22:28

Do you know what "incitement to violence" is? It's quite specific. It is encouraging people to commit violence. It is not having a negative opinion about someone.

Similar to how "hate speech" has a specific meaning which is completely different to "I think she is toxic".

Being able to express different opinions is one of the benefits of freedom of speech. KJK makes full use of it when she says people are mutilating children.

CassieMaddox · 21/09/2024 22:34

JanesLittleGirl · 21/09/2024 22:16

I kinda get the impression that there is no crime that is worse than being 'KJK adjacent '.

Really? I have a long list. In no particular order:

Being a multiple abuser of women e.g. Mohamed Al Fayed, Dominique Pelicot etc

Inciting riots and hatred e.g. Donald Trump, Tommy Robinson

Invading your neighbours e.g. Vladimir Putin

Murdering babies e.g. Lucy Letby

Sexually abusing and killing dogs e.g. Adam Britton

And loads more, that's just what's in the news today.

Similarly I can think of things I have strong opinions on that are less worse "crimes" but I can still rant about:

Eating aubergines

People who park on the pavement

Pronatalists and people who think women should stay at home and have babies

People who think Suella Braverman should be PM

Liz Truss supporters

People who don't recycle.

Most people have a range of opinions I think.

Imnobody4 · 21/09/2024 23:14

Statements from Women’s Forum Australia

1.Member of the Victorian Legislative Council Moira Deeming has disgracefully been expelled from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party.

Her Crime? Standing up for herself, and for women and girls.

On 18 March 2023, Moira spoke at Kellie-Jay Keen’s Let Women Speak rally in Melbourne, organised to help raise awareness about the harmful impact of allowing biological males who say they’re women to self-identify into female-only spaces, services and sports, and the harms of gender ideology more broadly.

The event was gatecrashed by a group of men from the National Socialist Network who performed the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament. This was then used by Victorian Liberal Leader John Pesutto to accuse Moira (and other women) of associating with neo-Nazis or neo-Nazi sympathisers in order to swiftly move a motion to expel her from the party.

There not being enough support to expel Moira, who had done nothing wrong, the party voted to suspend her for nine months instead. This was a result that she only accepted because she had been assured that a joint media statement by herself and John Pesutto would be issued to clear her family’s name of Nazi slurs, making it clear that she is not a Nazi sympathiser. However, the joint statement was never made.

Six weeks later, Moira told John Pesutto that if he did not honour the terms of the suspension and publicly declare she was not a Nazi sympathiser, she would be forced to challenge the suspension and bring legal action. He refused, and five other MPs brought a second motion to expel Moira for “bringing discredit” on the party - though as with the original expulsion motion and suspension, the grounds are unclear.

On 12 May, Victorian Liberal MPs voted to expel Moira from the Parliamentary Liberal Party. They also voted to remove Renee Heath as Party Secretary, for her role in the original expulsion minutes, which John Pesutto did not approve of. Again, the grounds for Renee’s demotion are unclear. Both motions passed 19:11. A third motion was also moved by John Pesutto to introduce his own version of the original expulsion minutes, which passed with less support.

Moira has since issued John Pesutto with a defamation concerns notice, as a last resort to clear her name.

What has happened to Moira is gravely unjust. The lies, the lack of due process and the silencing are not only an attack on one woman, but on all the women and girls Moira represents. Moreover, it is an affront to all the Victorians who voted for her.

  1. The expulsion of Moira Deeming from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party is baseless and gravely unjust.

Rather than supporting a woman who spoke out to defend the rights and safety of women and girls, you have instead chosen to slander and punish her.

The intimidation and silencing of women who speak out about their sex-based needs and rights has recently been condemned by UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, who specifically rebuked the smearing of women as “Nazis” or “extremists”, and the sanctioning of female politicians by their political parties.

Ms Alsalem notes that such smear campaigns against women “are deeply troubling, as they are intended to instil fear in them, shame them into silence, and incite violence and hatred against them. Such acts severely affect the dignified participation of women and girls in society.”

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 01:59

@Helleofabore

You seem to have a very different understanding of extremism than I do, that is clear. I don’t think CPAC are anything near ‘extreme’. Even by Australian standards. I think there are political groups out there that are extreme. The politicians speaking at CPAC are certainly conservative, but are all the speakers?. But you have also indicated that what I consider rather mainstream conservative beliefs, are extreme.

If some speakers at CPAC are not conservative in belief or politically, can anyone make such absolute generalisations about it ? It would be great to not have to have repetitive threads where Sal Grover and Rachel Wong are not accused of being extremists for appearing at CPAC.

I love this. Feminists agreeing with CPAC! It's amusing the lengths you'll go to avoid agreeing with someone.

CPAC, in its Australian form, has only existed since 2019. It's an export from the US. It's a Trump copy. It's the Heritage Foundation in all but name. Yes, it is far-right conservatism bubbling away here and you seem just fine with it.

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 02:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/09/2024 20:17

That isn't the controversial part, Eresh. You know this

No Messina, I don't. You've repeatedly claimed that the "incidents" referred to by Pesutto were important. The Maiden speech and the IWD are both about women's rights and child safeguarding. That's what you are pointing to as "controversial" when you imply that Pesutto was justified.

No, I haven't "repeatedly" claimed anything. What I'm saying is Deeming was counselled by the Leadership team after the first 2 incidents (this is referred to in the transcript). Why, I couldn't say. The problem with the third incident is clearly the association with KJK and others. It isn't the subject matter, so not Deeming's interest of women's rights.

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 02:14

@Snowypeaks

Deleted.

Good for you?

NotBadConsidering · 22/09/2024 02:16

Feminist aren’t “agreeing with CPAC”. They are going to the only group that have any interest or ability in enacting change to protect women’s rights, politically. Why is it never asked by posters like you why the left like Labor and the Greens are so ineffectual and indifferent to protecting women’s rights? (I know why…)

A change to the Sex Discrimination Act won’t come about by anyone other than the Liberals. A protection of children being harmed by medical treatments won’t come about while a Labor Minister is in charge of the Health portfolio, both at state and federal level.

Labor and the Greens won’t even entertain the possibility of a bill to amend the Sex Discrimination Act being read, let alone passed. Why do they hate women so much?

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 02:49

@NotBadConsidering

Feminist aren’t “agreeing with CPAC”. They are going to the only group that have any interest or ability in enacting change to protect women’s rights, politically. Why is it never asked by posters like you why the left like Labor and the Greens are so ineffectual and indifferent to protecting women’s rights? (I know why…)
CPAC doesn't have the ability to change or enact anything. I don't believe Labor is "so ineffectual or indifferent" to women's rights at all - The Greens simply don't have that on their platform not have they had a mandate to effect change.

A change to the Sex Discrimination Act won’t come about by anyone other than the Liberals. A protection of children being harmed by medical treatments won’t come about while a Labor Minister is in charge of the Health portfolio, both at state and federal level.
That's your opinion.

Labor and the Greens won’t even entertain the possibility of a bill to amend the Sex Discrimination Act being read, let alone passed. Why do they hate women so much?
Why make a such a hyperbolic statement? What amendment are you referring to? There have been a number of amendments in the past few years.

NotBadConsidering · 22/09/2024 03:12

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 02:49

@NotBadConsidering

Feminist aren’t “agreeing with CPAC”. They are going to the only group that have any interest or ability in enacting change to protect women’s rights, politically. Why is it never asked by posters like you why the left like Labor and the Greens are so ineffectual and indifferent to protecting women’s rights? (I know why…)
CPAC doesn't have the ability to change or enact anything. I don't believe Labor is "so ineffectual or indifferent" to women's rights at all - The Greens simply don't have that on their platform not have they had a mandate to effect change.

A change to the Sex Discrimination Act won’t come about by anyone other than the Liberals. A protection of children being harmed by medical treatments won’t come about while a Labor Minister is in charge of the Health portfolio, both at state and federal level.
That's your opinion.

Labor and the Greens won’t even entertain the possibility of a bill to amend the Sex Discrimination Act being read, let alone passed. Why do they hate women so much?
Why make a such a hyperbolic statement? What amendment are you referring to? There have been a number of amendments in the past few years.

CPAC doesn't have the ability to change or enact anything

But politicians attending do.

I don't believe Labor is "so ineffectual or indifferent" to women's rights at all

It was a Labor government that amended the Sex Discrimination Act in the first place that lead to the ruling in Tickle vs Giggle and it’s a current Labor government who have seen that happen and have done nothing. In what way is that either effectual or active towards protecting women’s rights?

The Greens simply don't have that on their platform not have they had a mandate to effect change.

Exactly. They don’t have it on their platform. Why not? They do have the possibility to effect change because their votes are needed to pass legislation introduced by Labor, hence the current stoush on the housing bill.

That's your opinion

So why hasn’t the federal Labor government acted to amend the Sex Discrimination Act? Why have Labor state health ministers in Victoria and Queensland ignored the concerns about children’s gender clinics and done nothing? What about them should lead me to think my opinion is wrong and change may come?

Why make a such a hyperbolic statement?

Standing by and watching the Tickle vs Giggle outcome and doing nothing doesn’t suggest a positive attitude to women, does it?

What amendment are you referring to? There have been a number of amendments in the past few years.

A bill to clarify that man and woman refers to biological sex, was introduced to the Senate last week and Labor, the Greens, and a few independents voted to not allow the bill to be even read, let alone debated. This is a very rare occurrence in the Australian Senate. It was an act of active obstruction to not even allow discussion about protecting women’s rights. In what possible world is this a sign that Labor and the Greens are worth bothering with in enacting change?

Snowypeaks · 22/09/2024 03:24

Imnobody4 · 21/09/2024 23:14

Statements from Women’s Forum Australia

1.Member of the Victorian Legislative Council Moira Deeming has disgracefully been expelled from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party.

Her Crime? Standing up for herself, and for women and girls.

On 18 March 2023, Moira spoke at Kellie-Jay Keen’s Let Women Speak rally in Melbourne, organised to help raise awareness about the harmful impact of allowing biological males who say they’re women to self-identify into female-only spaces, services and sports, and the harms of gender ideology more broadly.

The event was gatecrashed by a group of men from the National Socialist Network who performed the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament. This was then used by Victorian Liberal Leader John Pesutto to accuse Moira (and other women) of associating with neo-Nazis or neo-Nazi sympathisers in order to swiftly move a motion to expel her from the party.

There not being enough support to expel Moira, who had done nothing wrong, the party voted to suspend her for nine months instead. This was a result that she only accepted because she had been assured that a joint media statement by herself and John Pesutto would be issued to clear her family’s name of Nazi slurs, making it clear that she is not a Nazi sympathiser. However, the joint statement was never made.

Six weeks later, Moira told John Pesutto that if he did not honour the terms of the suspension and publicly declare she was not a Nazi sympathiser, she would be forced to challenge the suspension and bring legal action. He refused, and five other MPs brought a second motion to expel Moira for “bringing discredit” on the party - though as with the original expulsion motion and suspension, the grounds are unclear.

On 12 May, Victorian Liberal MPs voted to expel Moira from the Parliamentary Liberal Party. They also voted to remove Renee Heath as Party Secretary, for her role in the original expulsion minutes, which John Pesutto did not approve of. Again, the grounds for Renee’s demotion are unclear. Both motions passed 19:11. A third motion was also moved by John Pesutto to introduce his own version of the original expulsion minutes, which passed with less support.

Moira has since issued John Pesutto with a defamation concerns notice, as a last resort to clear her name.

What has happened to Moira is gravely unjust. The lies, the lack of due process and the silencing are not only an attack on one woman, but on all the women and girls Moira represents. Moreover, it is an affront to all the Victorians who voted for her.

  1. The expulsion of Moira Deeming from the Victorian parliamentary Liberal Party is baseless and gravely unjust.

Rather than supporting a woman who spoke out to defend the rights and safety of women and girls, you have instead chosen to slander and punish her.

The intimidation and silencing of women who speak out about their sex-based needs and rights has recently been condemned by UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, who specifically rebuked the smearing of women as “Nazis” or “extremists”, and the sanctioning of female politicians by their political parties.

Ms Alsalem notes that such smear campaigns against women “are deeply troubling, as they are intended to instil fear in them, shame them into silence, and incite violence and hatred against them. Such acts severely affect the dignified participation of women and girls in society.”

Wow. I'm shocked, I had thought this was a case of political ineptitude but that summary makes it sound much more malicious and cynical. I'd been wondering why Pesutto had not just apologised or settled, but perhaps the explanation is there - the alleged deceit - the lying to, and about, MD - would be too damaging to admit to.

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 04:47

@NotBadConsidering

A bill to clarify that man and woman refers to biological sex, was introduced to the Senate last week and Labor, the Greens, and a few independents voted to not allow the bill to be even read, let alone debated. This is a very rare occurrence in the Australian Senate. It was an act of active obstruction to not even allow discussion about protecting women’s rights. In what possible world is this a sign that Labor and the Greens are worth bothering with in enacting change?

Ah sorry, the Pauline Hanson amendment. Of course. Perhaps you'd like to have a read of this extract from Hansard. It the concerns Senators have around this amendment.

https://www.aph.gov.au/ParliamentaryBusiness/Hansard/Hansardd_Display?bid=chamber/hansards/28051/&sid=0007

MessinaBloom · 22/09/2024 04:48

Apologies, missing a word or two there:

It *details the concerns Senators have around this amendment.

NotBadConsidering · 22/09/2024 05:13

Opposing arguments to it being read. Not arguments to voting Nay:

”right wing propaganda”

”hateful and transphobic”

”care to the trans community”

”other things matter more”

So just the usual anti-women stuff then. Nothing about women’s rights in their opposition. All about trans people.

A sensible debate would focus on how to amend the Act to protect both trans people and women, but the anti-women Left won’t even have a debate.

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