Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

So you agree that the ICO are happy that these labs can be relied on to carry out drug tests so why should the ICO believe they wouldn't use that same expertise and professionalism in carrying out sex tests.

And WADA would choose labs for doping tests that fake sex tests?

"Sure, we know they produce fake results on demand for other stuff, but the drugs tests they do for us are solid. Don't worry". 😂

Oh you're just "speculating" now, etc etc etc ad nauseum...............

And why would any lab only do WADA work? That makes zero sense.

An NHS accredited lab will also do private work, that doesn’t mean the non NHS work is inaccurate.

WADA work with athletes, hence why a WADA accredited lab is useful for testing athletes, including for stuff that doesn’t come under WADA violations.

You can look for yourself about the results...the IBA found inconclusive results in 2022, which we have already covered.

I have no intent to deceive; I am pointing out the challenges with the provenance of the testing, and covering the issues with the IBA that are widely known already.

Seems to me that maybe WADA needs to step in here to protect their reputation - if the current assertion is that the labs they're relying on can't be trusted. Do they need to change labs, or investigate if they really are run by the Russians?

Well I am being paid by the russians (had to do something while I was waiting for my money from far right Christians in the US)

Happy to contribute to a crowdfunder for IK’s retest.

You can look for yourself about the results...the IBA found inconclusive results in 2022, which we have already covered.

You said "different results". What test, and what was the different result? An "inconclusive" test is not a result. "Inconclusive" = "no conclusion". You understand?

so are people accusing the Paris hospital of corruptly faking the sex tests Khelif’s own team ordered? Absolutely bonkers!

this hospital! https://endo-ern.eu/reference-centre/hopital-bicetre/

Inconclusive results for having XX chromosomes. Not that the tests were inconclusive.

Dr. Ioannis Filippatos was clear in the press conference. That set of tests showed both athletes to be XY chromosomes. They needed this confirmed twice to make sure no mistake, so tested both again the first opportunity they had.

The tests were not inconclusive in outcome. They were showing a result that was inconsistent with having XX chromosomes.

And also refers to the ‘expected’ outcome. Ie. Didn’t show the results were XX which was needed for eligibility.

Dr. Ioannis Filippatos was clear in the press conference. That set of tests showed both athletes to be XY chromosomes. They needed this confirmed twice to make sure no mistake, so tested both again the first opportunity they had.

Ah, thanks - I've rechecked the reports, and you're right. The 2022 result was "inconclusive" only because they had a single "male" result, and that wasn't sufficient for a disqualification.

In 2023 they were able to get the necessary pair of "male" results. So 3 tests, all saying male, but the first one on its own was deemed insufficient.

So no actual different results at all, just a failure to collect a pair of matching disqualifying results on the first attempt.

Requiring a pair of disqualifying tests is standard practice in drug testing, where the athlete will provide two samples at the same time, with the second sealed for an appeal for a claim of some sort of flaw in the test of the first sample.

Makes sense for sex testing to work the same way, although obviously it's a bit less critical as it's immutable and you can repeat the test as many times as you want. (Zero if you're the IOC or Khelif...)

That GCSE level of argument does extend to biology or history does it?

Imagine arguing that there's no problem when everyone single side involved admits to a chromosome test failure and no one has challenged this.

Why do people think it actually means?

Lordy.

I believe they really are that dim, yes.

suggestionsplease1 · Today 17:35

You appear to be alluding to IBA information, an organisation which is shady, was found to be involved in match fixing...

Presumably, you've read the preceding posts. The tests weren't "IBA" tests, they were simply requested by the IBA and carried out by independent laboratories, approved by none other than the International Olympics Committee and sanctioned by the ISO.

I absolutely support the two test protocol btw - important to be sure that there wasn’t a dastardly switcharoo of the sample nor a lab labelling accident.

It’s a bit like law enforcement DNA tests - there has to be a chain of command between sample and lab for the evidence to hold up in court - WADA labs will have a protocol that is sufficiently watertight that their findings will hold up in the international Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Being disqualified (or even just suspended) is a fucking big deal for elite athletes so the process must be reliable.

IK should deffo appeal the IBA disqualification at CAS - I’d love to see the entire case laid out in court documents, just as Caster Semenya’s was.

Ideally this testing would be done at the beginning of an athlete’s career so as not to become part of a big ‘ol public debate but here we are! Blame IOC for that particular shitshow, IK - most of us would’ve never heard of you if the IOC didn’t have such daft sex eligibility rules.

IK should deffo appeal the IBA disqualification at CAS - I’d love to see the entire case laid out in court documents, just as Caster Semenya’s was.
It's too late for an appeal now. Khelif submitted and then withdrew an appeal. Lin didn't appeal.

Such a shame 🙂

By the way, for all those who then wish to argue it might be a male categorised DSD where the body doesn’t virilise, in this little gem of a quote is another clue.

“He confirmed that Imane was indeed a woman, despite of her karyotype and her testosterone levels. He said : “There is a problem with her hormones, and with her chromosomes, but she's a woman.” That was all that mattered to us. We then worked with an Algeria-based doctor to control and regulate Imane's testosterone levels, which are currently in the female range. Some tests clearly show that all her muscle qualities and others have diminished since then.”

here

“Some tests clearly show that all her muscle qualities and others have diminished since then.”

If muscles have diminished with suppression of testosterone, that means the DSD that Khelif has is responsive to testosterone. That rules out CAIS and Swyers.

So where are we now?

We have two tests from independent labs in different countries, and the results have been suppressed by the athletes. We have a Gynecologist making a statement that the boxers both have XY chromosomes and pubertal advantage.

We have an endocrinologist stating that ‘despite‘ karyotype and testosterone levels, Khelif is a ‘woman’. Female is not used here.

We also have an Algerian doctor who has been monitoring testosterone suppression.

And female athletes don’t have any requirements to suppress testosterone. Only male athletes do this.

Plus we have the coaching official’s confirmation that muscles are reducing with that suppression of testosterone. Meaning not a condition such as CAIS, or Swyers as we have been assured by so many now.

I think the IOC is on very shaky ground here. You could argue that in boxing you consent to an assault but that consent is conditional on the opponent meeting certain criteria eg weight, no performance enhancing drugs etc.
One of the implied criteria for female boxing would be that your opponent is also female.

If the IOC knowingly let a male compete then they were negligent and the female boxers consent may not be valid.

Shall we start to have a conversation about safeguarding and consent.

Female athletes cannot be appropriately safeguarded unless the IOC is prepared to step up and take the responsibility they devolved to the international sporting federations seriously. They have mouthed platitudes for 25 years while supporting the exact opposite. It can be said that Khelif and Lin were also not adequately safeguarded.

Women didn’t consent to fight male athletes either.

Exactly.
But at this point if Imane came out in their birthday suit swinging "her" proverbials on live television waving an XY chromosome test and singing "I'm every Woman", there would still be people on here clambering to defend this.