Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

I’m sorry if this has been mentioned previously or on other threads, there are so many that I can’t find what I’m looking for.

I’m currently trying to find information regarding the previous fights Imane has with XX competitors, where the XX competitor won and why it doesn’t have any bearing on what is a fare fight during the Olympics and beyond.

Trying to link any info to someone online who is being a dick.

viques
The lies and deception will have wider implications than hoodwinking the IOC for the sake of a medal.

I know that this is from the first page but its worth noting that the IOC wasn't hoodwinked and is complicit in this

Watch from 10:00 onwards

This is IK's record on tapology.com www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/402370-imane-khelif

I don't know what the earlier fights that they lost were, but I think they were a lot younger and pretty new to the sport (this is not confirmed info).

This is a more comprehensive record:
boxrec.com/en/box-am/899786

42 wins (6 by KO), 9 losses (none by KO)

This is so fucking insane.

thousands of hours of “debate”; of paragraphs written; of concerns voiced.

we can SEE he is a man. As women our survival is predicated on being able to identify men at 100 paces. We know it, his competitors know it, the IOC know it.

but you know the what the tragedy is? that when it’s confirmed, there will be no apologies, no regret, the goal posts will shift and the supporters will simply say “but he identifies as a woman”. Feelings over fact.

and the biggest tragedy of all? The vast majority of his supporters support him because they support trans ideology. And today he’s told you exactly how he feels about trans: that it is shameful and dishonourable….and that ladies and gentleman is how we know Imane is male: because if a woman stated trans was shameful the death threats would be deafening.

Totally agree with this.

Some people just want to say "One finger Winston because the IOC said it, so its definitely true"

I found this analysis on Twitter but I don't know how well informed it is: https://x.com/UnityMoT/status/1819362323858915701

Throughout the still-developing Imane Khelif story there's been a significant focus on their boxing record and, specifically, the nine defeats on their record, all to women about whom there are no doubts as to their biological sex.

This echoes a very common argument in debates around the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports, which is that it's not really a problem just so long as the advantage from male puberty isn't so glaringly obvious that the transwoman wins all the time.

This is nonsense and, of course, we are not dealing here with a transgender athlete but with a suspected male DSD athlete, but the argument remains much the same - Khelif has lost nine of their fifty fights to female boxers, so that shows that they don't have an unfair advantage, even if they do have a male DSD - except ... it's just not that simple.

I took a look at Khelif's full record as an amateur and the first thing to leap out was that five of their nine defeats occurred in their first six fights as a 19/20 year old novice.

This is by no means unusual in women's amateur boxing because the current lack of depth in the sport, compared to the men's game, means there are limited opportunities for young women to gain experience without competing in international event against boxers some of whom have considerably greater experience, leaving young boxers overmatched in the early part of their career.

In fact, Khelif lost 6 of their first 9 fights, all of which were in either elite level international tournamants or the preliminary rounds of the world championships and in most cases these were narrow defeats by split decision. Khelif lost only one fight during this period on a unanimous decision and that was to a Swedish/Australian boxer, Anja Stridsman, who was 12 years older and had, at the time, a 29-9-0 record compared to Khelif's record of 1-2-0.

Since that early run Khelif has lost just 3 out of 41 fights, all to much older and more experienced opponents.

Defeat no. 7 came in Khelif's 16th fight with Mira Potkonen, who was 18 years older and fighting in the 263rd match of her career.

The next loss was to Ireland's Kellie Harrington in the quarter finals of the Olympic boxing tournament in Tokyo. This was Khelif's 22nd fight against an opponent 9 years their senior with a 77-16-1 record.

And Khelif's most recent defeat, in the 2022 women's world championship final was to England's Amy Broadhurst, who is only a couple of years older but was still considerably more experienced, having had 89 fights compared to Khelif's 35.

So, yes, Khelif has lost nine fights over their career, but six of those were as a novice fighting well above their level of experience at that point in their career, and their three defeats since have come against significantly more experienced opponents.

Most of Khelif's defeats were early in their career and at an age (19/20) where - if they are female - then their natural physiological development through puberty will be complete. Women, generally speaking, stop growing taller at around 15-16 years of age but don't reach their full adult size and bone mineral density until they're around 19-20.

However, if Khelif does have a male DSD then not only would they have continued growing taller until they were 17-18 years of age but the 'filling out' process through which males reach their full adult size and bone density typically continues on beyond that age and well into their 20s. At 25 years of age, Khelif - if they do have a male DSD - has only quite recently reached their full natural size and begun to experience the benefits of male puberty to their fullest extent.

On the other side of the argument this is what people who think Khelif is a woman and have opinions on boxing technique are saying:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaneKhelif/comments/1esyjsg/this_is_a_thread_for_those_who_actually_watched/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comments/1eouw0m/this_is_a_thread_for_those_who_actually_watched/

Some dissenting opinions in that last thread too.

BoxRec: Imane Khelif is very revealing.

First bout 2018, after only 2 years in boxing.
Pretty useless till 2020.
No losses since 2022 (I'm guessing the loss in Jan 23 was a walkover, that's what 'WO' means?).
A string of unanimous decisions (easy victories) recently.
Khelif was mostly beaten by Irishwomen in the past. Harrington and Broadhurst.

It isn't clear when from this webpage, but at some point Khelif moved from Lightweight, 60kg, to Welterweight, 66kg - that's how she avoided a second boxing lesson from gold medallist Kellie Harrington who stayed at 60kg.

That extra 6kg was undoubtedly muscle, built up in the course of the intense training regime Khelif was following, so that might explain the increasing number of unanimous decisions - a heavier physique which was more powerful than when 'she' was beaten by other women.

I've wondered in a previous post if the same training regime followed by somebody who had not been through male puberty would produce the same 6kg of muscle. So 'training harder' might never have the same outcome.

So, rapid build up of muscle… while an Algerian doctor has suppressed testosterone to produce supposedly a decrease in muscle.

A boxing camp in Spain, probably before said decrease in muscle finished, and a male boxer so powerful that they injured two Spanish female boxers within the first round causing bouts to be cancelled.

And yet…. Apparently, nothing to see here.

It is all falsehoods peddled by the IBA for reasons unknown but supposed to be rejected because IBA = corrupt evil not to be believed organisation vs IOC = corrupt but good and to be believed organisation and Algerian management team = completely unmotivated by gold medal chance and fact believing men (who pat all female boxers breasts on live international media, so nothing to note here, apparently).

It really has come down to faith in Khelif being untouchable and completely honest from the looks of it.

And the reason it rules out Swyers, of course, is that the body was producing testosterone in the first place, as it was now being reduced.

And that it wasn’t CAIS and just being reduced as there was impact on the body.

Just to make that clear.

Abso FUCKING lutely 👏

This, with bells on. I showed the picture of IK training with an actual female with her hijab on to my DH as well as the chest cuddling picture with IKs coach and the picture with IK straddled across the coach's shoulders. I explained clearly and calmly the strictness of Algerian culture and if any of the people around IK (including IK themselves) actually believed they were female, none of those actions would have taken place. Never mind that our eyeballs can tell us IK is male. I tried the eyeballs thing with DH and he continued to weakly say "but it's misunderstood, there's lots of misinformation, the BBC says it's complicated blah fucking blah" (you can tell I've had enough of him defending this shit) but the cultural pictures made him pause. And now this. IK has criticised the most Holy of Holy things (sacred Trans) and it's crickets.... If anyone believed IK was actually female the death and rape threats for saying that would be in the hundreds by now.

I'm actually beyond angry now about gender ideology and the whole movement. This has been it for me, this whole fucking situation at the Olympics. I thought this and the Cass report would finally FINALLY get the mainstream media on board. But no. Must not hurt the menz feelings and so they will continue to gaslight us all. Which proves it's an evil man-loving, woman-hating, misogynistic, dystopian, child-mutilating cultish nightmare. Fuck it all. And fuck everyone who enabled this shit.

WO is a very unusual event in boxing, it's a walkover. If the boxer has been announced and not got into the ring, the bell is rung and they haven't attended within one minute, the other fighter is awarded the decision as a Walkover.

I imagine the opponent didn't want to fight a man, so pulled out that way.

I have come to believe that while a lot of men decent these men/insist you can’t tell for misogynistic reasons, I also think men genuinely don’t recognise sex in the same way women do - probably for evolutionary reasons. Our lives literally depend on being able to spot a man from less than a second’s glance. The set of the shoulders, the gait, the shape of the forehead. It’s nowhere near as crucial for men, which is why we have pop songs like Lola which are all about how he couldn’t tell that Lola was a man and the entire ladyboy industry. They think we are lying/being mean when we say it’s bloody obvious that Semenya and Khelif are male. But to us, it is!

I find the speculation on someone's medical situation in the light of unknown information really weird.

I occasionally work with young people who have extremely rare chromosome abnormalities and deletions that don't even have names yet, as medical experts have only identified 2 or 3 others in the world who have the same variations.

The reality is there are incredibly complex genetic conditions out there that also result in very diverse presentations of symptoms, which ordinarily you would not expect to see paired together in any other conditions.

There are so many unknowns on this area, and none of us are aware of the specifics for this individual, it feels very off for anyone to be commenting with confidence on this matter when they are not in a position to.

The speculation is taking place because there is clearly some anomaly about this person and because, wait for it, women are being harmed by a person who appears to be male. I'm being polite there BTW. If this boxer is female then the easiest move would be a cheek swab, done under strict conditions so whatever is going on is in the open.
It's quite possible to feel empathy for a person but still consider them to be a cheater, and a danger to others.
My sympathy is out of the window because those who feel that he should be permitted to box have no care for the woman he is battering.

I occasionally work with young people who have extremely rare chromosome abnormalities and deletions that don't even have names yet, as medical experts have only identified 2 or 3 others in the world who have the same variations.

Are you suggesting there might be not one, but two, such cases in the women's boxing in the same year?

It absolutely IS possible to tell that it isn't certain DSDs, because we have the word of this person's own coach saying that their testosterone levels are doing such and such, and that their muscle mass is doing such and such based on that testosterone level.
It's not speculation, its a medical fact. They may be "complex genetic conditions" but that does not mean that we don't know how they work.
Swyers and CAIS being examples of the above.
Developmental biologist Emma Hilton has been interviewed extensively on this subject and is confident that this person will have 5ARD. She has spent her lifetime working and researching on these disorders so I trust her more than some "renowned" (yet un-named and unidentifiable) endocrinologist paid for by Imane's team).

I see that we have reached the emotional appeal to authority stage with the kicker of shaming.

The information is out there and being interpreted because a male person, as per the tests you choose to ignore, has been punching female athletes in a ring where they are using their male advantage of at least 160% or more punch power while the IOC allows this to happen. You find speculation 'weird' and 'off'. How convenient that you put such an almost impossibly high standard of proof so that you can continue to feel righteous.

All because you value a male athlete's needs to be significantly higher than female athlete's needs.

Can you tell us what female athlete needs to suppress their naturally occurring testosterone and give us the details why they would need to do so?

There's no evidence that IK has one of these "incredibly complex genetic conditions", and nor does IK have "symptoms which ordinarily you would not expect to see paired together".

IK has clearly been through male puberty, has a virilized body, has male chromosomes, has male testosterone levels, and was mistakenly identified as female at birth. We know the medical facts from what the IBA and others have said[1] about the sex tests they commissioned, and from what IK's trainer said in an interview[2]. This is not some unique combination of symptoms - it's all completely consistent with 46XY 5αR2D, the same condition that Caster Semenya and the entire women's 800m podium in Rio have.

There do of course exist complex and difficult cases, but all the evidence we have points to IK's case being extremely simple and well-understood.

[1] www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/3/0d4ucn50bmvbndhhqjohaneccoqueq
[2] archive.ph/ALwjQ

There will come a moment when I'll question if there is any dsd at all.
I begin to think this is just a normal bloke who got away with it for just too long. But he'll hide behind the whispers(and makeup) for as long as possible.

No one would need to be speculating on anything if the IOC did their job and administered a test.

Personally I feel sick to the stomach that people are happy to allow this individual to box women when there is considerable doubt about their sex. Don't you?

To add, IK could also put a stop to the speculation by revealing the test results from 2023. Or undertaking a new test.

I can only speculate as to why they havent done that.

I've thought this too. I recall reading a while back that men are scientifically shown to be less able to tell the difference between images of male and female people than women are, and I think, accordingly, when women assert that we can accurately tell, men assume we must be lying for malicious reasons.