Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.

[Patty78]

My best friend of 30 years has called me stupid, cruel, a fucking terf, a numpty, and an idealogical bigot. He also said he hopes my 7 year old daughter doesn't end up with XY chromosomes and I have to tell her she wasn't a real woman. Who does that?
I'm so so so upset. I went through my points clearly and calmly. I pointed him in the direction of Andrew Gold's interview with a developmental biologist. I said she made all the points much much better than I could.
I said I didn't really know what the situation was with this particular boxer because nobody could seem to agree. My only point was that if she is XY and went through male puberty, then some sort of policy should be in place. I also said that it wasn't fair for her to be in the limelight like this and that basically, it needs sorting at an administrative level.
The vitriol from him has really shocked me. I'm in tears. He's talking about my cruelty to this boxer (who he says was born and raised a woman and it doesn't matter about the chromosomes and would I also stop basketball players from growing too tall) whilst also being extraordinarily nasty to me.
Now I'm wondering if I've got this wrong.
The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter. But I'm pretty isolated, on my own... and now I'm really really sad.

What would people genuinely do if this became apparent with their own daughters? Kids who have been raised female and then have a genetic rarity? Do people think that people raised like this should now be men?

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Honestly for me if discussing her participation in sports I would tell her it's wrong to compete against women. For safety reasons first and foremost.

Other people matter too.

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This

Very interested in replies to this

I honestly don't blame your friend. There's a big push by interested stakeholders to paint these boxers as not just "women" but as biological females with a dsd which implies random xy chromosomes are floating around. Rather than the more accurate and way more plausible, these are xy men with a dsd which manifests as mistaken female genitals in early development.

The truth will come out eventually and all the internal testes bearers will be known. Maybe then your friend will be kind enough to at least bury the hatchet. I doubt he'll apologise.

For now, lots of space required. He has no skin in this game but you do and he knows it and he won't stand up for you and yours.

Nope,he is and always will be a man.

Nothing he does or says will ever change that.

He's just said me and JK Rowling don't get to decide what a woman is.

Bur he thinks he does?

What would people genuinely do if this became apparent with their own daughters? Kids who have been raised female and then have a genetic rarity? Do people think that people raised like this should now be men?

With DSDs like 5ARD it will be obvious from puberty that the individuals in question are not female. I'm sure that's a tough thing to come to terms with, but Khelif has had years to adjust.

Meanwhile, there are women whose safety, opportunities and dignity are being compromised by biological men in their sports. Where is the empathy for them? Men are not the only sex deserving of your sympathy.

I did that with Caster Semenyas publicly available photos via Google. Some nice female photoshoots, but overall a lot of pictures of Caster Semenya in male clothes, even in a tuxedo or three. Typical me and the wife pics. School pics as a teenager in boys uniform, etc.
It would turn out the same with Khelifs and Lins Google Photo search, probably.

The next generation is certainly going to be embarrassed, but not in the way that you seem to imagine. They'll also be furious that perhaps the biggest medical scandal in history has been perpetrated against them!

Me too. Call me old fashioned anyday. And my kids certainly aren’t ashamed, they were horrified watching that fight.

Define "woman" please.

To echo another poster. I'm also very old fashioned in my views that male violence against women is wrong. And even worse when it's a sport you can win medals for.

The boxer in question is not trans, they have a male genotype with an ostensibly female phenotype.

He isn't a cunt. Cunts are warm and deep.

Well, if that's what they want to do, yes! There are a number of treatment options, which need to be discussed with the child in a sensitive and age-appropriate way. I don't see why you think this hypothetical is some kind of gotcha.

@Patty78 your friend sounds unpleasant all round. But I've found this topic makes even otherwise nice, normal friends lose their minds. We just have to agree not to discuss it.

He sounds thick, sexist and aggressive, and not just about the boxers. It’s difficult to see from your message why you value this friendship. The fat comment and the unease about his DP being the higher earner are bad enough, but criticising your parenting on the basis that your DD’s chromosomes might change takes his revoltingness and stupidity to another level. You’ll thrive without him in your life.

I agree. DD1 and I massively disagree over this issue. I'm a proud Terf though. I cannot understand her support for this person at all.

The world is moving on, deal with it

Do you think the world should also "move on" to make it fine for adults to be recognised as children if they say they are, and allowed on kids sports teams - or for fully able-bodied athletes to be recognised as disabled if they say they are and allowed to win all the paralympics medals? Or for a heavyweight boxer to say they're a bantamweight and be put in that category and win all the medals, and endanger their opponents?

If not why not? These things are all measurably different from each other as are males and females. There are arbitrary cut-off dividing lines which are exclusive and "leave people behind" but it's just tough, categories are categories. Is that old-fashioned and embarrassing and akin to homophobia? If not, why do you apply this to having male and female categories? They are at least as real as the other categories.

Is it just because you've been told what to think and not thought it through?

I wouldn’t put up with verbal abuse like that from a friend.

would think less of anyone witnessing women being hurt by a biological man who thought the latter’s wish to compete was more important than competitors’ safety and fairness in the sport.

It’s not ‘moving on’ to end women’s sports or give a man a medal for hitting women

Yes because how she 'looks' is legitimate evidence...
Ffs

Do people think that people raised like this should now be men.

If it is subsequently determined that they are biologically male, then having been raised female doesn't make them female. Nevertheless, I don't think we should object to them living socially "as women", but we MUST insist that they are excluded from women's sports.

he's probably in large part a victim of disinformation.

the way this has been reported, these DSD 'athletes' are just regular girls & women, not the demure, pretty, girly-girl types, but girls all the same, who just one day found the world turning on them because of the results of some obscure, probably corrupt, medical test, the equivalent of finding out that you've got a really rare blood type.

This is something to which the IOC and the IBA have to respond, as no medical evidence has been published, and probably it will remain confidential as it's private information.

His phenotype looks pretty damn male to me!