Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Caster Semenya married a woman, in a country not known for its enlightened attitude to same sex relationships.

But if everyone in the country knows full well that Semenya is male, and that the "woman" schtick is entirely for external consumption, it's less of a problem, of course.

I wonder how that would work in Algeria.

Dutee Chand is known as ‘India’s first openly LGBT athlete’ so being attracted to women seems to have been at least somewhat socially acceptable in that DSD sports case too (although I believe Chand’s sister was not at all ok with it).

Perhaps a gold medal will afford enough national status to do as IK pleases without much criticism?

Alternatively, perhaps the cash/fame will help IK relocate?

Hes already based in Nice in France I believe. He will live in France where he can date the sex of his choice. Although not sure how this will go down there amongst the French LGBTQ+ brigade now thats he's publicly denouced being trans as shameful.

Hopefully for him hes gay and therefore can have gay sex with men in France and claim that that is appropriate as a nice muslim girl.

Chersfrozenface · Today 10:50

But if everyone in the country knows full well that Semenya is male, and that the "woman" schtick is entirely for external consumption, it's less of a problem, of course.

Well, quite. It's pretty obvious that everyone and their dog knows the reality of it.

It's odd to be thinking of Khelif's future domestic arrangements, lcakethereforeIam, but I also can't help thinking that there's a messed-up individual at the heart of this, and what happens after the blaze of ill-gotten glory?

I've been trawling through lots of French-language Algerian websites recently, and have seen a few videos of IK being interviewed in which his voice, mannerisms, body language etc are not at all 'bloke-ish'. He comes across, outside the ring, as reserved, quietly-spoken and...well, pleasant. He looks to me like someone who was indeed brought up 'as a girl', and shows the effects of that socialisation in his mannerisms.
This is no 'Do it like a dude' Semenya.

As I've said in previous posts, if I wasn't paying close attention, and saw and overheard IK in one of those lesbian bars [remember them?] I used to frequent occasionally visit, I wouldn't be outraged that a man had been let into our lesbian space [the past is a different country..🙄].
But once inside the boxing ring, it looks like 'she' has been replaced by her muscly arrogant older brother, who isn't that great a boxer but wins easily if he fights with boxers from lower weight categories. Not that the boxing authorities would ever allow such a dangerous mismatch, of course...

The no-expense-spared, no-holds-barred machine identified the 17 year old Khelif as potential raw material, and worked relentlessly to turn out a medal-winner at the Olympics, regardless of the cost to the other women boxers, to the integrity of the sport - or, I think, to Khelif, who was a useful (and willing, of course) pawn.

I think I hope, for his sake, that it would be better if he's in on the con/take the money and run. A boxing match, let along one with a gold medal at stake, must be quite febrile. They're trained to fight but also probably trained to be arseholes when they're in the ring. They're not there to make friends. I can easily believe Khelif can be a lovely chap on a personal level.

I'm not going to lose sleep over him, but being raised as one sex and then truly being told you're the other, not just some bullshit gender feels, well I bet that's quite the ride. If he still thinks of himself as a woman but cannot countenance being trans I can't help wondering how it's going to work out, what the future holds for him. It could all be played out very publicly and while I don't have much sympathy for him i don't wish him harm.

She is so fabulously clear in thought and speech. Thanks for posting

Very good. No audible response though. Disconcerting, when we’re used to British sheep noises and heckling.

Haha "British sheep noises" reminds me of General Melchett from Blackadder 😂

Or, IK could be exhibiting the natural speech patterns and manerisms of a gentle sort of person, of which there are many men, gay and straight.

Some behaviour is learned, some is innate, some is used to portray a persona that the person feels communicates something about themselves, or how they would like to be or be perceived.

As another poster had already commented on, the lack of recognition and acceptance of LGBT lives in Algeria is an issue - if IK internally identifies as a gay man or straight woman then they're better of in their current public identity, but if they internally identify as a lesbian or straight man then they're at odds with what's acceptable at home.

I wish them absolutely well and fully support them to live their life however makes them happiest and makes most sense to them, outside of participation in female sport.

In half on hour on Radio 4:

Anne McElvoy and a conflict resolution expert explore the issues around trans athletes in sport with swimmer Sharron Davies and motorsport racer and trans activist Charlie Martin.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021xst

In case anyone is interested in how that discussion went, according to the format of the programme, the two sides seek to find a centre ground with the guiding hand of a mediator.

However, in this case, the mediator could see that Davies wouldn't be steered to the centre ground by having emotional manipulation used against her and wasn't well disposed to her. However, she did approve of Charlie Martin for complying with the mediation format. Martin got the mediator onside by suggesting that Davies was mean, and how it was such a shame she wouldn't comply with policed language.

Although a failure, the programme was an effective illustration of why going to the centre ground won't work. If getting to that centre ground happens by the application of misinformation and emotional blackmail, the centre ground is a trap.

The 'centre ground' isn't women agreeing that men can be women. It's third spaces. But for some reason, women failing to surrender their position is seen as being rigid, while men failing to surrender their desire to use women's spaces is seen as evidence of sincerity and a reason we should acquiesce.

Women are service humans, again.

Charlie was never going to meet in the centre. Charlie was never going to agree with anyone who doesn't believe that transwoman are women

spannasaurus · Today 16:45

Charlie was never going to meet in the centre. Charlie was never going to agree with anyone who doesn't believe that transwoman are women

I agree, he would try to drag the line for the centre ground further and further to him.

This

I heard the second half and it made for an uncomfortable listen. I didn’t know who was who, apart from Sharon. There were a lot of stuck silences. Sharron was clear and calm and consistent.
Other people were then a bit stuck as their usual go defence of bellowing ‘bigot’ clearly wasn’t available.

I’d like to listen from the start to get a better idea of how it was framed.

The premise was that Sharron and Charlie took turns asking each other a question. They then had to listen to the answer without interrupting and then say what they thought the other person had said in their answer. I think a list of questions was provided to them but not certain on that point

"Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.
You take a step towards him, he takes a step back.
Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man."

I was confused at the premise that they should meet in the middle when Sharron made a couple of suggestions that could be considered "middle" (separate category, renaming the male category as Open so that it wouldn't feel that the trans athletes were misgendered by the name), but Charlie made none that I could hear - did I miss something? I was listening and working.

I've just listened to it. If I were nitpicky......I'd take issue with preamble. The presenter said something like transgender people not welcome in women's sports. Tm who aren't taking testosterone are welcome.

Also, kudos to Charlie, who didn't have much beyond regurgitated slogans but at least showed up (the silences were nearly as painful as the mistruths).

Actually, I think I'd agree with Charlie's second answer about science and fairness. I think I'm more likely to be pleased by the results of unbiased science. Any reasonable person, one not blinded by wishful thinking and ideology, would see men identifying into women's sports is not fair.

Then if we're talking about people dropping out of sport. Is the already woeful participation of girls in sport likely to be improve if they have the prospect of being tackled by the fragrant Tiffany or, on the subject of tackle, having to share a changing room with 'her'.

Guardian article about women in sport.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/15/womens-parity-in-sport-has-a-long-way-to-go-despite-positive-paris-signs
That did not go the way I expected!

Good article - I like the way it was about actual women athletes (and neither pretended that the boxing debacle didn’t happen nor spent ages discussing those male athletes when the focus was meant to be on female athletes).

Excellent German article by (liberal) newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung on the boxing case - all the more noteworthy given they've been staunchly TWAW otherwise. Well worth Google Translate.

The two most noteworthy points to me:

• The IOC "Boxing Unit" was in fact staffed by former IBA officials, making the IOC's 3 Monkeys stance on Lin and Khelif all the more remarkable.

• Besides a general desire to score woke points, the IOC's position was also influenced by the fact that an Algerian sports functionary plays a central role on its board as de facto power broker for the African continent; he was instrumental in the push to extend Bach's term for a non-statutory third round. Bit of tit for that there it seems.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/olympia-geschlechterdebatte-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting-thomas-bach-ioc-mustapha-berraf-frauen-lux.HGqinamFLdsnw5Q7Qz3mYh

Looks like the Süddeutsche piece is paywalled - no tokens - but here's a couple of screen shots: