Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Thread 3

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Thread 2

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Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

There are some breathtakingly stupid comments on X, like one from Laurie Penny where she basically argues that having a DSD (or more accurately, being male) is just another natural advantage like being tall is in basketball 🙄 To take this argument to it's logical conclusion, we wouldn't separate by sex at all and men would win everything. Would these people be happy then?

If western countries can have transwomen in women's sports, why the fuck shouldn't other countries have males with DSDs?

And vice versa.

It's just different flavours of male entitlement.

We can never trust male-led institutions to have women's interests at heart.

If the commentators were freelance I wonder why that was?

I'm wondering if it's because the BBC didn't want to put any of their commentators on it, in case they were sitting on the wrong side of the fence, and they couldn't work out which side of the fence that was.

If you're freelance, you can be dispensed with.

The other thing is, isn't there a sex discrimination case to be brought?

Placemarking

I'm consistent in posting that I always hope to be wrong but I never believe the tide is turning.

As for Sharron Davies mentioning Lord of the Rings. I remember that book because it was so damning of the IOC. Very little seems to have changed. They operate within a culture of impunity and immunity.

The other thing is, isn't there a sex discrimination case to be brought?

If any one of those athletes decided to take legal action I can imagine their crowdfund target would be met within hours. They must have so much worldwide support.

Agree with this.
It's not the same as trans. Dsd conditions can be very complex.

It does seem that this boxer has male advantage and in that case of course Khelif should not be fighting against women.

But she may truly consider herself female. She was socialised as such and I have no issue referring to her as female, just not boxing as such if she does have male musculature etc. It's a medical condition. She is from a poor, very conservative background too. We can have no idea how educated she is about sex. It's supposition to say she knows she's a man. She might. She might not believe it. Most likely has ambiguous genetalia or this wouldn't have happened in the first place, surely.

Still not fair she fights though. That shouldn't have happened. Unfair on everyone involved.

Well, Khalif has got the medal.

It's not much of a win, is it? As Ross Tucker says, being male and having male advantage isn't a talent.

The majority of average, able-bodied men could successfully beat up women. Walk into a pub and any of the men in there could do what Khelif has done. It's not an achievement, and nothing to be proud of.

@nauticant "In the present case the IOC have barely kept a lid on things even with the media being significantly on board."

Indeed. And isn't it really really scary that the media have been "significantly on board". The media are always accused of bias and that's fine - I don't expect the Guardian to run lots of stories about right wing issues and I know what to expect if I read the Daily Mail. But they at least try to represent their readership, even when they're goading them on with click bate and inciting ever more extreme views with their content.

But when the ALL of the mainstream media completely disengage with the views of the majority of the population and present misinformation as fact, we are heading down a very scary path.

I mean, has anyone seen a mainstream media article (which isn't an opinion piece) which actually reports the blindingly obvious and unequivocal fact that these two boxers are men?

She is from a poor, very conservative background too.

I'm at a loss to how anyone is squaring this with the fact that Khelif is Muslim. Muslim women from poor conservative backgrounds do not behave in public as Khelif has.

As for Sharron Davies mentioning Lord of the Rings. I remember that book because it was so damning of the IOC. Very little seems to have changed. They operate within a culture of impunity and immunity

Lest we forget - major dodginess surrounding the bid for the Salt Lake City winter games of 2002. Ten IOC members expelled and ten sanctioned for ‘taking gifts’.

I looked into this…

“Islam is the predominant religion in Algeria, with over 99% of the population identifying as Sunni Muslims. The country has a long history of Islamic tradition, and religion plays a central role in daily life, particularly in rural and traditional communities.

In such communities, Islamic practices and beliefs are deeply intertwined with cultural norms and social structures. “

As for the carrying on shoulders bit…

“Public physical contact between men and women who are not immediate family members is generally discouraged in conservative Islamic cultures. Such an act could be seen as violating cultural and religious norms related to modesty and propriety.“

Perfect #xx

As far as I can see, the science is pretty clear, and well-established. It's the legal situation that's a minefield.

We don't know for definite the exact genetic makeup of these boxers, but let's take Caster Semenya as an example. The 46 XY 5-ARD DSD is a male condition. But because Semenya is legally female, I think it has to be reported that she is a female with a genetic condition, and that she naturally produces male levels of testosterone. So now it sounds like 46 XY 5-ARD is a female condition, which is objectively not true, but I'm not sure how else they can legally report it?

Is this what 'socialisation as a woman' in Muslim Algeria looks like?
(pic copied from The Telegraph on X https://x.com/Telegraph/status/1822023356121538779)

I just think this opens the doors for any old bloke to say they have a DSD and should compete against women. We've seen state sponsored doping before. What's to stop state sponsored doctoring of birth certificates, passports etc?

They all know he’s male, they just don’t care

The sad thing about all of this is none of it is surprising- a captured IOC, a fully captured media and endless promotion by said media of “ooooh it’s so complicated” means that unless your someone who has been following this for a while, you would think there’s no way the IOC would let a man box a woman

I mean Lbh how many times have ppl come on here to insist men in women’s prisons/refuges/rape groups/sport etc never happens and been gobsmacked when presented with the evidence

I mean it is mad - it’s all insane, we’re in the upside down

There isn't even a need to "doctor" it per se. In the UK you just need to apply to change the sex marker on your passport, it's not a legal process at all.

Yes, it couldn't get any more gaslight-y unless the next issue of Paris Match carries a fawning interview with his lovely girlfriend. Who is expecting twins. 😡

Apologies have not RTFT. I thought this would be a real turning point and that so many people would be outraged about these boxers. My Facebook feed is full of people talking about them - but sticking up for them against a tide of "bigotry and misinformation". (These aren't posts from people I know, just the random stuff Facebook presents you with). There is just so much of it, I'm finding it really depressing.

Oops, meant to reply to @dollybird

Placemarking thanks for new thread @Signalbox

I had to come off Twitter for a bit as there is too much fuckwittery.

Someone is seeing just how stupid people can be, how many will say 'she' if they're told to.

Yes I've thought this for a very long time.

All those cheerleaders on social media have been swept up in a fiction as obvious as the Emperor’s New Clothes. It is depressing.