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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

743 replies

Signalbox · 10/08/2024 07:53

To continue the discussion...

Thread 3

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5135868-thread-3-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

Thread 2

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?utmm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men? *”Two athletes competing at...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

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67
SinnerBoy · 14/08/2024 09:58

Yet it is hideously cruel to refer to Khelif by male pronouns...

It's entirely accurate, so why is it cruel? What about all the women he's beaten up? Were they not far greater acts of cruelty, if you accept that using the correct pronouns is cruel?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/08/2024 10:00

Igneococcus · 14/08/2024 07:39

I can't see this shared anywhere. I think it's pretty safe to say that women and their right to safety and fairness are not a major concern for Martin Samuel:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/fd3425a5-eec6-438b-9375-7f0b465d59e1?shareToken=79d64a4de6550450c68d27f8440052ea

I wonder how a male feeling up a "woman's" tit live on international TV goes down in the boxer's country? 🤔

Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
duc748 · 14/08/2024 10:05

Also, I regard anyone who continues to peddle this 1.7%, as common as red hair, figure as a dishonest shit. I'm sure Samuel knows perfectly well that the figire for the rare DSDs in question is vastly lower. And as far as we can see, Khelif doesn't seem to suffered from too much bigotry in his 'backward' native country.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 14/08/2024 10:17

That Samuel guy is hideously sex-normative, verging on the transphobic. It's possible for civilised beings to understand that someone can be legally and/or socially female, but at the same time not qualify for female competition because their gross body morphology renders it unfair and unsafe. There's no call for referring to them as 'it', even to make a point.

parkrun500club · 14/08/2024 10:24

viques · 14/08/2024 08:56

Well the three women who were denied medals ( plus sponsorship,lucrative endorsement deals, a place on Olympic history, reward for their years of training and sacrifice) and their moment on the podium certainly knew, and what happened when they spoke up? They were the ones lambasted in the the press, called out on social media and told they should stop being whinging losers.

"white tears"

as if it doesn't matter if the three males involved had also stolen medals and competing opportunities from all ethnicities. The 800m podium had two black women on it this year. It's not about nationality, race or skin colour, it's about fairness and biological sex.

The boxing is worse because it's a contact sport and it's effectively not protecting women from being beaten up by men.

KohlaParasaurus · 14/08/2024 10:31

Martin Samuel is parroting hand-waving witterings that were on social media two weeks ago as if they're his own fresh and original insights. We've been round the block so many times about women being the real innocent victims of the Khalif story that I couldn't even be bothered gracing the article with a comment last night.

I assume it's The Times's nod to "balanced coverage", in which case getting this rather unpleasant chap to highlight men's bottomless envy for other men is fine with me.

RedToothBrush · 14/08/2024 11:52

"I know I'm going to deride people 'dehumanising' a male DSD boxer because they've used him instead of her, and won't you think of the impact of them when they go home to their conservative society without proper healthcare, by drawing false equivalence and replacing the word him with the word "it" in brackets because this is more sensitive and understanding of how language used will help Khelif going home."

Are we supposed to actually believe that this guy is more on Khelif's side than anyone else? This guy isn't on Khelif's side. He's very firmly trying to put the boot into women who say no that's not a woman without even a pretense of being an ally to Khelif. He's simultaneously putting the boot in there too.

Odd isn't it. One might see the stink of male supremacy about it, if you look closely. No wait. You don't need to look closely for that at all do you?

WickedSerious · 14/08/2024 12:15

He should stick to wittering about West Ham.

MarieDeGournay · 14/08/2024 14:59

Here's a twist: I was reading some Algerian news websites about Khelif's triumphant homecoming, and noticed a recurring suggestion that the 'campaign of hate' against IK was masterminded by 'enemies of Algeria', especially.. Morocco!

So not only are we missing out on payments from The American Right for questioning TWAW, but apparently the Moroccan establishment also owes us a bob or two for questioning IKIAW.

annejumps · 14/08/2024 15:08

MarieDeGournay · 14/08/2024 14:59

Here's a twist: I was reading some Algerian news websites about Khelif's triumphant homecoming, and noticed a recurring suggestion that the 'campaign of hate' against IK was masterminded by 'enemies of Algeria', especially.. Morocco!

So not only are we missing out on payments from The American Right for questioning TWAW, but apparently the Moroccan establishment also owes us a bob or two for questioning IKIAW.

But the Jews are still to blame, right?

MarieDeGournay · 14/08/2024 15:21

..and another snippet I came across, regarding a possible future in pro boxing for Khelif.
Note the importance of IK's 'up to two million Instagram followers' - no publicity is bad publicity, eh?
It looks like pro boxing is going to be a bit more stringent about sex testing:

Matchroom Boxing promoter Hearn was asked if he’d considered pursuing her signature if she turns professional, to which he responded to iFL TV: “Yes, if the facts were laid out.

“If it was in a position where there is no reason why this individual shouldn’t compete as a female.

“One, she is a talented fighter. Two, commercially I think she has up to two Instagram million followers so the answer is yes.

“But I mean there is probably facts that we don’t know around the situation and if they are true.

“But if a fighter was deemed female with no physical advantages, but again I haven’t seen anything, I have only seen people say ‘they have done this test’.

“Do we get to see it? Are we just going to believe that narrative? It’s not ever one that I’d go I’m not getting involved in this conversation.”
On the situation that unfolded in Paris, he added: “If there is an unfair physical advantage that the individual is, that is what has to be looked at...'
Eddie Hearn Considers Signing Imane Khelif After Gender Row At The Olympics – Luxury Blog (amazingtoday.net)
I've put in the link for verification purposes, it's an odd site - lifestyle? sports?
It just popped up when I was googling IK.

SinnerBoy · 14/08/2024 16:27

I'm not sure that the BBBC allow cross sex matches. I'm sure that women pros here would kick up a fuss and rightly so! Also, he's not very talented, he's pretty mediocre and got by on his punching power.

RethinkingLife · 14/08/2024 16:52

SinnerBoy · 14/08/2024 16:27

I'm not sure that the BBBC allow cross sex matches. I'm sure that women pros here would kick up a fuss and rightly so! Also, he's not very talented, he's pretty mediocre and got by on his punching power.

Cross sex matches were explicitly banned in the UK for quite some time. (Staging exhibition bouts at fairs had been a workaround the prohibition on boxing for some time.)

As it is, it wasn't until 1998 that Jane Crouch succeeded in a legal action against the BBBC to be granted a licence as a professional boxer.

Most fighters will tell you they can deal with the physical pain of boxing, the jabs, the hooks and the uppercuts. That the most sickening blows take place outside the ring. That the real frustrations are with landing fights, or dealing with agents and promoters. Or in Couch's case, winning her licence to fight in the first place.
She was determined to make change happen. It took her three years to get her day in court. She needed the help of Diana Rose and the late Sarah Lesley, who were both working pro bono, and the backing of the equality opportunity commission.
"It was three women against the establishment, and it was the last male bastion that we knocked down," Couch says.
They were trying to overturn the British Boxing Board of Control's decision to refuse her licence. Part of the reasoning behind that decision was that, being a woman, pre-menstrual syndrome made her 'too unstable to box'.
Couch had been fighting for around four years. Sometimes overseas, other times in unlicensed bouts in the UK. She was a world welterweight champion, but still portrayed as something of a pariah. The oldest boxing paper in the land, Boxing News, steadfastly refused to cover women's boxing at that time, because it wasn't licensed.

In March 1998, Couch was successful in her claim for sexual discrimination against the British Boxing Board of Control. She had won the right to box professionally in the UK. It was a landmark ruling.
"I thought, everything is going to change now, I'll be able to get on shows at home and get better paid," Couch says. "It was a great day. I don't think I'll ever forget it, we three women hugging each other and thinking we're going to change everything.
"But then as I was leaving the courtroom Diana said to me: 'You do realise this is just the beginning'. I never knew what she meant, until now."
Acceptance did not come overnight. The pre-eminent British promoters of the time still didn't want anything to do with Couch and were vocal about it.
One of the most prominent, Frank Warren, didn't promote a female boxer until the latter part of the 2000s. For months after winning her right to fight, Couch still found herself a polarising figure. They asked on talk shows: Was it really OK to allow a woman into the ring?
"I don't know why I carried on, because winning that case had no benefit to me whatsoever," Couch says. "I still had to box abroad, I was still berated by the press. I was still frozen out by promoters in this country. I walked into a room and people laughed. So no, the case wasn't worth it."
The "stigma" as Couch puts it, might be fading but it still exists.
Today, the British Boxing Board of Control lacks female insight. It is the regulator of the sport, overseeing hundreds of shows a year, appointing referees, judges and handing out licences to fighters.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/52942479

Jane Couch

Jane Couch: The inspiring story of Britain's first female world champion boxer

Jane Couch knew she could fight. She knew she could be world champion. But the biggest bout of her career would take place in the courtroom.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/52942479

SinnerBoy · 14/08/2024 17:11

I know about Jane Crouch and admire her greatly. She had a documentary years ago and the Guardian had an excellent interview with her, also long ago.

Zeugma · 14/08/2024 17:31

New Private Eye dropped today. The 'Remote Controller' TV column is devoted to Olympics coverage and includes the approving claim that 'Big Daddy Bunce' brings 'serious expertise' to the team.

….he achieved a huge British broadcasting Olympic moment in an impassioned early on-air defence of women's welterweight gold-medallist Imane Khelif, pointing out the fighter was born and has lived and fought as a woman ('She is a heroine in Algeria!') and that any eligibility issues relate to endocrine complexities rather than false allegations of being trans.

I mean, where do you even start with this level of wrong? I do so hope that someone writes and sets them straight on a few basic facts. I’m so very disappointed in PE, whose much-vaunted investigative rigour has gone mysteriously AWOL on this particular issue.

RedToothBrush · 14/08/2024 17:40

annejumps · 14/08/2024 15:08

But the Jews are still to blame, right?

White Racist Jewish Moroccan Bitter American Women called Elon Rowling it would seem from the blame game I've seen / heard, some of it first hand. Its unpleasant.

ArabellaScott · 14/08/2024 18:23

Zeugma · 14/08/2024 17:31

New Private Eye dropped today. The 'Remote Controller' TV column is devoted to Olympics coverage and includes the approving claim that 'Big Daddy Bunce' brings 'serious expertise' to the team.

….he achieved a huge British broadcasting Olympic moment in an impassioned early on-air defence of women's welterweight gold-medallist Imane Khelif, pointing out the fighter was born and has lived and fought as a woman ('She is a heroine in Algeria!') and that any eligibility issues relate to endocrine complexities rather than false allegations of being trans.

I mean, where do you even start with this level of wrong? I do so hope that someone writes and sets them straight on a few basic facts. I’m so very disappointed in PE, whose much-vaunted investigative rigour has gone mysteriously AWOL on this particular issue.

Rigor my fat arse.

Someone recently shared Hislop and Merton's disgusting performance with Paula Yates. I can no longer see them as anything other than a pair of grotty wee nyaffs.

QuimReaper · 14/08/2024 19:14

The London Review of Books has weighed in on this issue now, with the view that sex screening is racist.

It is no surprise, and certainly not a coincidence, that non-Western athletes have been unfairly and disproportionately targeted by eligibility rules. Compulsory gender testing was instituted as a result of Western European and US athletes being outperformed by their Eastern bloc competitors during the Cold War. Western media accused Eastern athletes of not being true women and threatening the integrity of their sports. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, all the athletes who have been banned or restricted from competing internationally as women (that we know about; it’s supposed to be confidential) have been from the Global South.

Approvingly quotes Thomas Bach's 'they have female passports so are women' stance.

Opines that:

We should ask what being a woman means, how womanhood is defined, and against what (and whom) womanhood is ‘defended’. [...] We should interrogate the colonial roots of medical accounts of female and male embodiment, and the construction of femininity through (and conflation with) whiteness. We should listen to athletes whose womanhood is doubted not only because of their outstanding athletic performance, but because their bodies are at odds with Western notions of femininity. In 2009, when Semenya was banned from competing for eleven months after winning the 800m at the World Championships in Berlin, the head of South African athletics asked: ‘Who are white people to question the make-up of an African girl?’

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2024/august/fair-competition?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20240814Blog&utm_content=20240814Blog+CID_80150067404a38bf3b491f1e8a3ae4f7&utm_source=LRB%20email&utm_term=Read%20more]]

Mireia Garcés de Marcilla | Fair Competition

It is no surprise, and certainly not a coincidence, that non-Western athletes have been unfairly and disproportionately...

https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2024/august/fair-competition

duc748 · 14/08/2024 19:19

We should interrogate the colonial roots of

Yeah, heard enough. 🙄East German doping, LRB?

Zeugma · 14/08/2024 19:41

One of the most absurd things I’ve ever read - by far - was an article in the LRB about pronouns. Thankfully, I've mostly managed to forget its full idiocy.

Omlettes · 14/08/2024 19:42

Zeugma · 14/08/2024 17:31

New Private Eye dropped today. The 'Remote Controller' TV column is devoted to Olympics coverage and includes the approving claim that 'Big Daddy Bunce' brings 'serious expertise' to the team.

….he achieved a huge British broadcasting Olympic moment in an impassioned early on-air defence of women's welterweight gold-medallist Imane Khelif, pointing out the fighter was born and has lived and fought as a woman ('She is a heroine in Algeria!') and that any eligibility issues relate to endocrine complexities rather than false allegations of being trans.

I mean, where do you even start with this level of wrong? I do so hope that someone writes and sets them straight on a few basic facts. I’m so very disappointed in PE, whose much-vaunted investigative rigour has gone mysteriously AWOL on this particular issue.

Why cant you write in?
Why is it up to someone else?

QuimReaper · 14/08/2024 19:44

I was particularly struck by their actively citing the East German doping scandal and characterising it as 'Western media accused Eastern athletes of not being true women'!

Zeugma · 14/08/2024 19:45

Omlettes · 14/08/2024 19:42

Why cant you write in?
Why is it up to someone else?

They ask correspondents for their name (even if you don’t want it published) and unfortunately there are work-related reasons I can’t do this.

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