Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Thread 1

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I don't agree with you on this - I don't think that any behaviour is, or should be used as, a measure of female-ness.

Even Semenya prefers to see herself as a special kind of woman rather than a defective man.

Well, if that was the binary on offer, so would I. If the binary were reversed I still wouldn't be content with the word "defective" in play. 5-ARD is a VSD/VSC, variation of sexual development/variations in sex characteristics, no need for the word defect/ive.

I take all the points made about my earlier posts, I'm by no means defending Khelif, and my sympathy is 100% with the women cheated out of medals.
I just think it's a slightly different case from Semenya who didn't even pretend.
Now about eyebrows - when I was reading up about Khelif, there were lots of photos and in some of them the make-up was really professional - eyeshadow, eyeliner, foundation, contouring, the works. Worx?😋.
So in some photos she definitely looks like a woman; a woman with strong features, granted, but a woman, thanks to very skilfully applied make-up, definitely beyond the 'put a bit of lippy on' level.

Whether Khelif is good at doing Khelif's own make-up, or there is somebody who does it to bolster the woman-essence-ness, I don't know, but it is a significant element in how Khelif presents.

I never thought I'd [a] be suspected of being a bit wishy-washy around gender and [b] discussing make-up on MN!😳

I agree with what you're saying here in theory.

However, if we're being told that Khelif would not been aware of his maleness due to his upbringing in rural, conservative Algeria, I think it is fair enough to point out his behaviour would not be acceptable from a female in rural, conservative Algeria.

I wonder why there is so much focus on one competitor and not on the whole competition / overall rules. (I must admit to being afraid that we are being distracted and there will be a revelation that undermines our arguments and puts us even further back than we are now).

When the IBA tested in 2022 (I hope that I have remembered the date correctly), they teated 5 boxers in the female category where questions had been raised and all five of them were male.

I think we also need to retain sight of the fact that the IOC have created these rules and they believe in them. The footballers played in Spain and currently have lucrative contracts in the US. Many cycling organisations in the US and Canada do not restrict the female category to biological females and UK cycling had to come under significant pressure from a very high profile female olympian in order to rethink their eligibility criteria.

It is not an issue that comes out of the global south, the cheating east or the uneducated women oppressing elsewhere... it is right here, everywhere sport is practiced.. at the centre of all sports.

Not one single sporting organisation has come out and stated unequivocally, without caveat, that the womens' category should be, will always be and always has been, exclusively for women.

You don't agree with something that I haven't even said in that case. I didn't say that Khelif's behaviour should be used as a measure of Khelif's female-ness. The only measure of "female-ness" is that you are female.

I was simply pointing out that crushing a man's head into your breast is atypical female behaviour and may be an indication of how Khelif's perceives their own sex/identity.

A couple of posters on X claim Imane used male forms of words when being interviewed in their native language. There is also a photo of Imane modelling a groin guard.

I'm sorry: the alternative should perhaps have been 'a special kind of man'. The trouble is that Semenya doesn't seem to esteem female attributes, so wouldn't subscribe to that, either.

Just popping in to say: have you seen the podium photo from the 2022 African championships on Imane's insta?!

I agree with pp on the previous threads that we shouldn't be judging on looks alone..... but it does give the distinct impression that other nations may also exploit the DSD issue in selecting their 'female' athletes.

(Can't attach an image, phone won't let me do it).

Apparently women do also wear protective pelvic guards in boxing.

Maybe someone is holding Thomas Bach's family hostage. I'm not sure what would induce me to talk such utter bollocks in front of the world's media. Why isn't he ashamed?

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1821918512966668693

It's a conundrum for sure.

There's a third group of children who were brought up as a different sex to their birth sex (the other two being children with some DSDs* and children who were transitioned by their parents very early). These are boys who lost their penis through trauma, usually botched circumcision. At one sad point in history these boys were further mutilated without their consent and brought up as girls. The literature tells us that this almost never works out.

Is it because of some innate sex linked gender identity? Or is it because children aren't stupid and get that something's not quite right? 5-ARDS boys don't have female genitals, although there can be different levels of ambiguity, it could be a similar situation.

And of course, the 5-ARDS boys get some of their development later on unlike those that were permanently damaged.

*Important to acknowledge that historically some children with DSDs were also given permanent surgical procedures to help them "pass" without their consent.

I’m struggling to find video of Khelif’s winning bout. Would anyone be able to provide a link? Thanks

An Algerian poster who knows the language says that’s a very common colloquialism, and that in another Arabic language the female version of ‘people’ is used by men. It’s not definitive, basically.

And women use groin guards and chest guards, though the shape of the groin guard may be slightly different.

The photo doesn’t really clarify anything, despite my wanting it to.

I am in need of some light humour... thank you... like at the end of Years and Years where Viv Rock reveals that she is being controlled. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_and_Years_(TV_series)

@sunburnandsangria we shouldn't judge just on a still photo - they can be misleading if the lighting is in just the wrong place or something (but, hmm, it's sometimes quite hard not to isn't it?).

@Iwishihadariver Is this the policy you were unable to open? It opened fine for me just now.
https://www.gbboxing.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/BABA-Equality-Policy.pdf

Thanks asportsmum . It looks like an employee policy rather than applicable to boxers, so no help there.

Just seen the most beautiful reel on the bbc sport website.
Women's beach volleyball kicking off and then the DJ plays 'Imagine' and peace is restored.
It makes me realise how amazing real women are after all the ugliness of the boxing.
Have a look.

People are saying all sorts of things many of which aren’t true. I’m not lending any credibility to the penis photos as it’s so easy to manipulate them. I’m confident in the evidence of my own eyes looking at the post bout celebrations and reading the sex of the individual hoisted aloft, plus the running photos on his own instagram account, the sitting with legs akimbo photos…….I find the fact that he has occasionally worn makeup in order to appear more female when it’s suited a specific purpose to be evidence of deliberate obfuscation rather than a sincere identity. It’s irrelevant anyway, men shouldn’t be in the women’s category however they identify and irrespective of the circumstances underpinning that identity.

I agree . Though the pictures of him in make up seem more like the artist formerly known as Prince- about a chic aesthetic- rather than femininity. Though perhaps different pictures as I don’t do instagram.

FlippinFumin · Today 09:29

I am just going to have a quick look to see if she tweeted anything when Nicola Adams won gold for Team GB.

I couldn't find anything from her, but this was to her:

https://x.com/Chris1966/status/1819371991763169534

If a biologically female athlete with the xx chromosome tested for the levels of testosterone as males with the xy chromosome they would be banned for doping. Nicola Adams who fought for the right to box in the Olympics as a female athlete. She has condemned what is happening. Be more like Nicola

The focus on Khelif’s femininity, or lack of, is what’s giving the cheerleaders ammunition - they can say K is being bullied by nasty cruel bigots. The focus should instead be on the IOC, the lack of robust testing and the lack of concern for women’s sport and women’s safety. Bring back the swab test, 82% of women said they wanted it, there was never any reason to scrap it. Having a cheek swab to determine your sex is arguably less degrading than hopping on to the scales to determine your weight.

We cannot have anyone with male biological advantage in women’s boxing. It is as insane as it is irresponsible.

@theilltemperedclavecinist · Today 09:18

Spotted on X...

Could you link that, please? I'd like to retweet it.

https://x.com/bettinablancoRD/status/1822043396812296403

Hope this works. It was a reply to that idiot mp.