Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Thread 1

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Yes, I found the same. I saw Zarah Sultana's post on X in which she praises Khelif and I like her so I was disappointed but when I looked at the replies every single one was angry, pushing back strongly and asking whether she approved of a man punching a woman in the face. There were over 3000 responses all outraged.

There's a little comfort 🔎 that there been a lot more push back than when Caster Semenya was winning medals. The war isn't over, they haven't won yet.

@InWalksBarberalla There are two footballers in the Zambian team who openly admit they have XY DSD and male level testosterone but their sporting organisation admits competitors into the female category on the basis of legal identity. They also happen to be the most expensive players in the history of womens' soccer.

I don't know what other sports admit competitors into the female category based on legal / declared identity alone but I would bet the house on the fact that there are more than 4 in the entire olympics.

I do know that athletics, cycling, swimming and rugby have set male puberty and 2.5nmol/l of testosterone as the dividing lines in 2023. This is much more strict than before.

Seb Coe is no womens' advocate angel. He has said he needs to protect the womens' category at an elite level but would die in a ditch to protect the rights of a transwoman to take part in the category of their identity at grassroots level.

If the IOC followed the lead of athletics et al.. followed their deliberations, review of evidence, conclusions and clear rules, we would not be so angry, but they insist on repeating that legal sex is enough and there is no better test. That is a lie, this is not personal, not a culture war, not against human rights. It is simply the best way of ensuring safety and fairness in the female category as tested and concluded in the Court of Arbitration in Sport in 2019.

It has been an ongoing discussion for decades.

It's going to be quite convenient for countries who aspire to Taliban like complete removal of human rights from women and girls to be able to still compete at international sporting events in all categories now all they need is to issue an F in a passport to a man.

It's going to be so convenient to actually exclude females from sports / participating in public life entirely but pretend that they're so progressive with all their male women competitors. And pats on the back from Mark Adams, the misogynistic prick. Men like this secretly don't think women deserve equal (any?) rights. Disturbing he's so close to Starmer.

We're in for a long fight.

The "progressive" social media reaction looks a lot like the right-wing anti-vax one during covid. I wonder how many Russian and N Korean bots are posting misinformation? Putin must know what a divisive hot-button topic this is and his main tactic is to sow lies, division and confusion. This is a perfect topic for him as it divides his enemies in the West while also firming up support in Russia.

theilltemperedclavecinist Yes, it couldn't get any more gaslight-y unless the next issue of Paris Match carries a fawning interview with his lovely girlfriend. Who is expecting twins. 😡

I've been reading a lot of French-language Algerian etc media since this story broke, and TBH Khelif does seem to 'present' as female in everyday and professional life - not very convincingly, we might think, but it looks fairly sincere.
For example, being appointed UNICEF 'Ambassadrice' [feminine gender in French] alongside a male 'Ambassadeur'.
There's none of the Caster Semenya ordinary-bloke-with-wife-and-kids stuff.

Getting Khelif to the gold medal win at Paris has been a big project for Algerian sport; it'll be interested what happens next, now Khelif has served that purpose. Probably some more amateur competitions, then what? Katie Taylor became a very successful professional boxer after her Olympics success. What would happen if Khelif turned professional? Would professional women boxers be prepared to risk their livelihood by boxing against Khelif?

I haven't been to Algeria, but knew plenty of Algerian people when I lived in France. There was a mixture of levels of adherence to things like hijab-wearing, and if you look at a photo of a street scene in Algeria, some women are bare-headed and dressed in western style, others wearing the all-covering 'haik', there's no one way for women to dress.

I think when Khelif's background is described as 'conservative', I don't think that means deeply observant in the religious sense, so it may be a stretch to say that a real Algerian or Muslim woman wouldn't do this or that.. 'real' Algerian and Muslim women get up to all sorts, I'm guessing

I think Khelif's behaviour is different from Semenya's, and may be less cynical on a personal level. Still shouldn't be boxing women😡and I'll be suitably repentant if that Semenya-style article appears about Imane and her lovely missus and kids, theilltemperedclavecinist !

Here's another narrative, with just as little evidence to support it as the poor girl who found out she had xy chromosomes but was socialised female and we need to be kind and affirm this.

5-ARD is a male dsd and on virilisation at puberty, many boys with this condition embrace their male identity, especially in communities where it's a known phenomenon (there's a genetic element so it sometimes clusters).

A child in a poor conservative rural village (could be in many countries - I'm sure a few spring to mind) became masculinised at puberty and was given the freedom to take part in sport that wasn't available to females in recognition of a sex status that was "other".

A coach/sporting body with an eye on the main chance has promised the world to this boy if he'll keep his female identity. Why should he care? He gets to do what he loves, gets one over on those who said he was neither one or the other, gets adulation in his country, gets money.

He's still being exploited, but he knows what's going on.

Generally social media is not a force for good but here it's great. Unlike in previous decades those in charge of rich organisations can't just lie to the populace and get away with it. This worked in the past.

I do wonder if some of the atrocities of the past could have been stopped by normal people rising up had there been social media. I've read a lot of personal accounts (diaries etc) during the Holocaust and a lot of normal people believed the propaganda just couldn't quite believe that the government was actually going to kill vast numbers of Jews, including children. There was a boiled frog effect, but there were fewer sources of alternative information. Had there been people with smartphones getting photos of concentration camps hopefully there would have been more push back sooner. Obviously there was a lot of rule of fear too, but at the start I've read lots of accounts that just didn't believe what was actually happening.

Maybe I'm naive

It's clear lots believe the propaganda (despite the photos of a man, I wonder if online scammers are taking note of the credulous ones) but most don't.

Brendan O'Neill interviewing Fiona McAnena from Sex Matters...

I agree to a certain extent.

I keep having to remind people who come onto threads and keep talking about how oppressed Khelif is and censuring others about language and discussion that there is two of them. Yet no one discusses the Taiwanese boxer.

I have come to realise that the other boxer is inconvenient to some people because that boxer doesn’t evoke sympathy and overly emotional responses. I have come to realise that for some people it is not about discussions to work out what is misinformation and what is truth, and how did this happen and what would be the appropriate way forward. For some it is a way to demonise the people who are asking questions and who are feeling gaslit and who want to protect female sports.

Those people have politicised the situation even more by focusing on that one boxer. I think most feminists have tried to remain focused on both equally at the start. Having now been on what seems to be ten thread or more and watching this unfold, that feels like the line of progression.

People have tried to leverage Khelif’s personal history as an emotionally manipulative ploy to support male people with male pubertal advantages to be allowed to compete as female people if they have a history that demands female athletes let him compete in sympathy.

That is what all this ‘it’s complicated!’ refraining has led me to believe.

So, I've been having a look at the website for GB Boxing. They state they are "committed to promoting equality in boxing, and where it is possible to do so, eliminating unfair discrimination, including but not limited to sex, gender, race, disability, age, religious or political belief, sexual orientation, social background, ethnic origin, language, marital or civil partnership status or pregnancy".

I can't find any statements about the current issues in womens boxing, and I have tried to read their equality policy but can't open it. Their regular news items from the Paris Olympics have not mentioned the events in womens boxing.

They say that GB Boxing is responsible for elite boxing, including Olympic selection, so it would be interesting to understand their position on men in women's boxing. Am I not looking in the right place? Does anyone have any better info on boxing governance in GB?

Note: my bold in the equalities statement above (if it works!)

I haven’t been reading any French language Algerian media so I’ll have to defer on that one, however the photo of being appointed UNICEF 'Ambassadrice' is literally the only one that’s come up where any attempt has been made to present a ‘female’ identity. His Instagram looks as though he socially presents as male.

I find the appointment as a UNICEF ambassador to be just as problematic. If you knew you were male, but you needed to convince the world that you were female, that appointment is perfect.

And it genuinely takes the opportunity from a female athlete who could be encouraging girls to achieve.

It's very telling how there's so much sympathy for Khelif but the women boxers beaten by a clear and obvious physical advantage get none.

If nothing else told you who the man is, that would.

And I wonder why heavier boxers can't just write down their desired weight on a piece of paper and join whatever competition they want?

Double standards.

Being Muslim, they fit into the narrative of 'most oppressed' more easily.

Those pushing this narrative don't have a clue what to do with Taiwan.

OK, re the GB Boxing policies re British boxers and the Olympics, I have found that GB boxers have to meet both IOC and BOA eligibility criteria. So that's self ID then?

See Selection Policy for qualification for Paris Olympics
www.gbboxing.org.uk/governance/company-documents/

Re: being an ambassador, iirc Monroe Bergdorf was a UN Women's Ambassador amongst other titles.

Being an ambassador seems to be quite a popular gig.

www.voice-online.co.uk/news/uk-news/2019/06/12/munroe-bergdorf-speaks-on-childline-axe/

They just bang on about western beauty standards as if there are not beauty standards inflicted on women in non-western countries.

I know some very liberal Muslims in the UK. Women who have never covered their heads, who drink alcohol, have open relationships outside marriage. I cannot imagine any of them sitting, living or interacting with men the way I've seen Khelif do.

Fuck, that's me in the man box then.

Sorry, I meant to say 'sitting, moving' not 'sitting, living'

Personally, I wouldn't have thought that this would be deemed acceptable for a Muslim woman.

Im a very relaxed liberal western atheist who works exclusively with men and often socialises with entire groups of men and i have never once rubbed any of their heads into my breast when greeting or celebrating with them. None of them has ever patted me on my breast either.

@MarieDeGournay @ditalini @PinkTonic

I think individuals can live with a great deal of cognitive dissonance. Even Semenya prefers to see herself as a special kind of woman rather than a defective man.

But Khelif and Semenya both seem to have very male personalities (eg playing out with other boys as a child), which makes me wonder if there is something in the idea of gender identity after all.

Obviously I can't subscribe to the idea of cross-sex gender identity, because, without further evidence, it's an unfalsifiable proposition.

But having your developing brain doused in T must make a difference.

AFAIK CAIS women behave like women (and I do know that it's virtually unknown for them to identify as trans men). (I'm wondering now what their rates of violent and sexual offending are.)

More worryingly for me as a feminist, I'm wondering if Semenya and Khelif have got away with things in their lives that other 'little girls' wouldn't have, not (just) because they were potential sporting standouts, but because of their aggressive personalities.

(We're being oppressed because we're too nice? 😒.)

Anyhow, this post was brought to you by the department for overthinking......