Do you talk about this stuff in your "real" life?

[DungareesAndTrombones]

Just pondering after having a disagreement with a distant friend on social media about the boxing debacle, where she and lots of her mates disagree with my view that the most important thing should be protecting women...

Do you talk about this stuff in your real life? I do to close friends but I would never share anything on my own social media, and I've said a couple of things at work but pretty sure I would get the sack if I said my actual views. I've got a younger team member who hates JKR with a passion and I spend time biting my tongue when she speaks about her.

Why does it feel so worrying for me being GC to speak out but other people who think TWAW are free to plaster it everywhere?

Work (NHS) I'll talk about it if it is broached with me but not otherwise. I don't sign up to pronouns, new rainbow flag or recording gender identity on small children. Increasingly people know my views and after the BMA Cass vote (grrrr) a few people sought me out to explain what the issues are and they knew I would give an alternate view.

Social wise/ Family I try not to unless I know the person is an ally as I have close friends/ families who completely subscribe to TWAW and there have been rows in the past. My brother gets splinters in his arse from trying so hard to sit on the fence and not take sides.

At home and in friend groups yes, I’ve been talking about it for several years and am openly GC. 99% of my friends are on the same page. My previous job was the sort of place where the TRAs held sway, and pronouns were popping up with increasing frequency. They were all female, which was depressing to say the least. I left. I’m still friendly with my ex-colleagues but I don’t discuss this shit with them.

My new workplace doesn’t do pronouns and while we don’t talk about the issues much, I’m openly GC there too. It was a fucking relief to move there

How funny-I was wondering this very question today. I am lucky in that I have lots of TERF friends so I can discuss it with them. I got into a long discussion on Facebook today with a friend who posted a nasty article about JKR. I tried not to comment but I bit and she came back with “TWAW” and “JKR is hateful”, to which I posted lots of info and links as to why that position is untenable. It was utterly pointless as she is captured and another of her friends joined in to tell me that she had a trans child and how disrespectful I was. I generally wouldn’t post on my own Facebook page though as it would alienate too many people but I do post about it a lot on my Twitter feed.
These two women today were rightly acknowledging that the boxing issue is not a trans issue but were still arguing for the right for men to punch women in the face (the poor oppressed men).
I am so sick of it that I couldn’t keep quiet. One of my friends is/was a very influential feminist whom I think most of you would have heard of. She is now firmly of the TWAW persuasion and has been standing up for the boxers. I find that such a betrayal and thought out of everyone I knew she would be first in line at the (metaphorical) protests to keep men out of women’s spaces. Instead she’s the opposite and I find it incredibly sad. I avoid the subject with her completely now.

I work in a pretty high-profile workplace so was v scared to say anything, but I have spoken out at the staff day. Got some pushback from activist colleagues complaining to the manager, but thanks to the extremely courageous Maya Forstater I felt secure enough to stick to my guns. I also got some communication from supportive colleagues in other depts. Now trying to peak colleagues and my boss :) This issue and the 'no debate' stance is the absolute epitome of male entitlement and misogyny, and I can't believe people don't see it. I read Susan Faludi's 'Backlash' 20 years ago. Well, now the backlash is here, and I never pictured it being like this. V grateful for my equally GC husband and other supportive friends, but I completely understand why other women may not feel able to speak up. This is invidious and the ostracism is awful x

I do , but I'm very selective who with. OH, DD, some good friends and luckily even a few people at work that have similar views.

@Notahandmaid I'd say that anyone who believes that Khelif and Lin are male, but should be in the women's boxing competition anyway, is not only captured but bloody stupid.

We had a discussion about it at work today but I feel very uncomfortable about the whole thing now because of the conflation of issues. People have started to take the Khelif/Lin thing as an excuse to start saying that various other female boxers, including the Taiwanese boxer, are also "obviously men" because they're butch, which is hugely regressive and awful. The whole point of feminism is meant to be that there is no one way to be a woman.

Yes, I do.
I've lost lots of friends over it but it still doesn't stop me from speaking.

Couldn’t agree more. They were wilfully stupid today.
And the person I mentioned - the semi famous feminist - is saying it’s all a Russian conspiracy. She’s fallen so far down the rabbit hole that I can’t ever see her getting out.

Um, take a look yourself. It might actually be a problem more widespread than just 2... due to lack of testing anyone can rock up as a woman

Um, yourself. What we really don't want is for people to start accusing butch biological women of being men because they don't fit a paradigm.

Yes regular disagreements with people I love both about me terfing and also sensitivity to young autistic girls rebelling against gender stereotypes they don't like.
It's hard.

I did talk to my parents about it last night in relation to the boxing. Painful. We got onto single sex spaces and my dad said, "but women sometimes go into the men's toilets at bars and things." Yes dad, but are the men in there in any danger at all from that? He admitted they weren't, then walked off and left his dirty bowl on the table. Which I ignored.

I talk to everyone about it and post it on my Facebook. The boxing debacle has been really an interesting one in terms of engagement with what I'd call non feminist friends.

I'm protected under the law is my reason but I do work for a very "woke" US tech firm so it's probably just a matter of time.

Yes with most family and friends, no on social media, as I have a close relative who is trans and don't want to cause a shitstorm.

One of my DC is definitely GC, but at the other extreme one tends to adopt the political cool cause de jour (inevitably based on talking points off Twix, not actual knowledge).

Amongst friends, I've only had one acquaintance go a bit TWAW on me. One quite good friend who I thought would be TWAW turned out most refreshingly to be GC and well up on the debate.

Bloody wicked as well, IMO.

I love that last bit of detail about the bowl and read it in the voice of Alan Bennett 😂

Um, yourself. What we really don't want is for people to start accusing butch biological women of being men because they don't fit a paradigm.

On the contrary. I am a biological woman who has often been mistaken for a man when not conforming to gendered expectations. It is easy to confirm that a woman is female. I would much rather have to do so than put women at risk for fear of embarrassing an 'unfeminine' woman.

It's called Safeguarding.

OP, I assume by 'real life' you mean in person rather than MN, Facebook etc.

If it comes up in conversation I'm happy to give my opinion which is that people can dress how they like (within reason) and I'll respect that but women's single sex spaces, sport etc should be protected. I'm more interested in what someone is like as a person.

If someone doesn't agree with me, them I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Despite knowing lots of people across many age groups I'm yet to meet anyone who actually believes TWAW. I only ever read about it here or see politicians make stupid comments but tbh politicians will say anything to get a vote so I take what they say with a pinch of salt.

I suspect I don't come across people who think TWAW is because they are in the minority (but shout the loudest).

@girljulian Um, yourself. What we really don't want is for people to start accusing butch biological women of being men because they don't fit a paradigm.

I'm mis-sexed all the time. But there's a difference between saying a woman is a man because she doesn't conform to stereotypes and saying this person might well be a man became of male traits, extra long arms, narrow hips as well as lack of sex testing and evidence that at least 2 ARE male. Yes i am saddened that it's come to this. It's a disgusting situation that only adversely impacts women.

All of this can be solved if there was sex testing. Which they won't do. Because women aren't important.

In my 50s so most of my friends are similar aged women and pretty much all GC. Public sector employer whose DEI training video says we should never question someone's gender identity and they can use whatever facilities they choose 🙄but my immediate team is GC thank goodness! The kids are a bit captured though and one has a trans BF so I have to be a bit careful there, I would never want them to feel like their friend was unwelcome.

Yes, I do. At work and with friends and family. However, the administration at work is very much TWAW, pronouns in email and Pride month all year round. Therefore, I have to be very careful what I say online and have become mute on social media. However, not one person I talk to believes that you can change sex, nor do they see any benefit to young people transitioning - quite the reverse.

We have a situation where the institution insist on clinging to the crumbling ideology, while troops on the ground see the real harms to young people played out in front of us every day. Young members of staff are split between the middle-class cheerleaders and the more cautious working class staff, who seem unimpressed with the ideology and its impact on vulnerable young teens. But in this economy, who wants to rock the boat? I feel compelled to speak the truth as I see it - from research, reading and listening to experts. On the whole, I will not dicuss it unless I hear egregious untruths or slander.

I'm sure there is a place for your direct approach, but I just tell my story as a parent very adversely impacted by trans ideology, and try to reserve arguing for people who are up for an intellectual debate. Most of the people I have told my story to (at length!) find they have some sympathy even if they are fully signed up to gender ideology; most of them haven't even considered the impact on anyone other than "the most marginalised". I don't know how effective my approach is, but I get the impression it gets people thinking when previously they were content with thought terminating clichés.

Yes I talk. But I also listen and don't lecture.

I talk about it all the time, in person and on social media. I was talking about it last night in the pub. My teen daughter was initially TWAW, but I said that under no circumstances do I want to hear that crap under my roof. She’s since become a very articulate terflet, who spoke about it a lot in school.

I feel confident enough to be able to answer/debunk/contradict. I never let it go for an easy life.