Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

[Fetlocksblowininthewind]

Just thought I'd share this in it's own thread in case it gets lost in the other one.

It's still not right what's happened but I'm pleased to see this, the IBA know she was cheated!

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif | The Independent

All this.

It doesn't matter how he's been raised or what he thinks he is;none of it alters the cold,hard fact that he's a man.

Well done to the IBA. This is appalling and I'm so pleased that at least one sporting body is standing up for these women

Is this your reaction to being put in your place with all of the utter bollocks (no pun intended) that you spouted about female genitalia. Caster Semenya is a man. I therefore refer to him as a man. And not only is he a man, he is a man who deliberately destroyed the hopes and dreams of a generation of female runners. He's a horrible, cheating man. I know he identifies as a man but even if he didn't, I will not support the delusions of men who hurt women. Not ever.

And I sure as hell won't misgender every single innocent man and woman who was born with a DSD in order to virtue signal about how respectful I am of a cheater. Because that is what you are doing. Except you aren't just doing that, you are spreading horrible disinformation about their bodies. But I guess it's ok if you don't know their names?

The image on the right btw is what a male with 5ard is born with. As you can plainly see, I hope, that is not female genitalia. If you think it's female genitalia, I'd suggest you educate yourself.

The girl kneeling is a nice touch. Shouldn't he have had the same impulse to make himself lower and smaller if he was 'raised as a female'?

Your diagram contains a vaginal pouch, which a page ago you were pretty clear doesn't exist in your expletive laden post which I did not know how to respond to.

Male and female external genitalia develop from the same embryonic source and the difference is the influence of testosterone. Eg, if you are XX but have male levels of testosterone for example influencing the development of your external genitalia as a fetus than you may develop a fused labia majora that is indistinguishable from a scrotum besides the absence of testes. The scrotum and labia majora are equivalent structures as are the penis and clitoris. This is how the embryological development of external genitalia is currently understood.

In case you are mistaking my intention with this - I am not stating this to suggest in anyway that there are not two sexes phenotypically or that sex doesn't matter or that all men are women or anything at all along those lines.

Merely that a person with DSD can be born with external genitalia that is anatomically identical or very similar to female external genitalia despite having XY chromosomes to the extent that they are mistaken as female and are raised with that identity, and the DSD not diagnosed until puberty. They will not of course, develop female internal organs including inner vagina, cervix, uterus or ovaries - and I have never claimed such. This is why a vaginal pouch develops and not a vagina. It's to do with the embryonic origins of the vagina. Externally however the appearance will be the same.

I'm sorry that discussing this has made you so angry.

The diagram you've linked literally shows this. We have profound differences of internal sexual organs but externally there is a phallus that is the size of clitoris and lacks an enclosed foreskin. A urethral opening which is separate to the phallus and positioned just anterior to a vaginal opening. And the absence of a scrotum or externally detectable tests.

In other words at birth, feminine external genitalia which would lead to a sex assignment of female in the absence of further medical investigations.

THE POUCH IS NOT A VAGINA!!!!!!

What is actually wrong with you that you think a pouch to nowhere is a muscular canal to the uterus. I did not say there was no pouch, I said a pouch is not a vagina. Do you know how utterly, utterly, utterly offensive and genuinely fucking stupid that is?

I think you must be a troll, nobody is genuinely this ignorant.

No it doesn't. Do you actually think that women are just small men with no penis? Seriously. Do you know how utterly misogynistic pretty much everything you are posting is? I mean come on. I'm gen x, i'm pretty old, I went to an all girls convent school and I learned all about male and female genitalia in first year science, second year home economics, third year religion and in really in depth ways in social sciences in fifth and sixth year. (I didn't do fourth year I'm pretty sure I'd have gone over this again, if I had.)

Do people really not know the absolute basics about our own bodies that we think our vaginas are empty pouches?

So I said:

"People witb XY DSD including 5-ASD deficiency and CAIS can be born with fully female external genitalia and a vaginal pouch"

I have never made the claim that a vaginal pouch is the same internally as a vagina, only that externally it is the same.

Then you said:
"There is no such thing as a vaginal pouch"

"A man with 46xy 5ard does not have a vulva, no labia, inner and outer, no clitoiris and no vagina"

Then you linked a diagram which demonstrates that at birth the external genitalia of somebody with 5-ASD are as I have described, including the vaginal pouch.

And you have continued to swear at and personally insult me.

I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this discussion.

Incidentally of course I don't believe that "women are just small men with no penis". I just don't deny the currently understood science about external genital development, the embryological equivalence of various male and female external parts, and how this is influenced by the presence or absence testosterone within or without the context of DSD.

The progressive movement treats any gender / biological sex edge case as though it's part of a natural spectrum. The reason is understandable, given the history humanity has when it comes to mistreating anyone who doesn't fit into the "correct" categories. They believe they are making the right moral choice and protecting vulnerable people against a potentially cruel society.

But there is no recognition (or even self-awareness) within the progressive movement of how their approach works and the negative unintended consequences of this approach. They adhere to the principle unquestioningly, and will argue that black is white and even deliberately misunderstand the science if the alternative is accepting that, say, a man with DSD is actually a man with DSD and not a woman.

Ultimately, today's progressives are doing what the more radical leftist movements always do, and putting their preferred moral beliefs ahead of the observations of objective reality. They're following a dogmatic ideology that they will not accept is a dogmatic ideology. Therefore, they are fundamentally incapable of accepting that life is messy and sometimes unfair and doesn't fit into their simplistic world view. And, as is also tyical of the hard left, they will claim that anyone who disagrees with them is an ally of neofascists.

Is someone seriously on here trying to argue that men with 5ARD are born with a vagina with their ambiguous external genitalia that can look like a vulva? God the copium. I always knew trying to claim males and females with DSD as part of their queer spectrum would eventually bite TRAs on tbe arse. Poor people with DSDs who have repeatedly asked not to be conflated with the trans ideology (both individuals and organisations). Who are the body fascists now?

Yup. It's unbelievable isn't it. Imagine just spouting obvious lies over and over and over and claiming they are righteous.

I don’t really get the whole DSD issue. Surely people born with anatomical reproductive abnormalities are still male or female?

A man or woman born infertile, for example, isn’t any less of a man or woman.

What am I not understanding?

Yes, because there is no such thing as a vaginal pouch. That's correct. A vagina and a pouch are two utterly incomparable things. Continuing to pretend that you think they are the same is so mind-blowingly horrible. And yes, I do keep swearing. because what you are saying is so very, very offensive. There are no expletives that can come close to being as utterly offensive as your continued disgusting claims can convey.

Every word you type, comparing a pouch to a vagina is either staggeringly stupid or unforgivably horrible. And I don't think anyone is that stupid.

Then I suggest you take down the "horribly offensive" medical diagram you linked, which has a little arrow pointing to the structure that people with 5-ASD are born with, labelling it a vaginal pouch. I didn't invent the terminology that offends you so much, it's simply what is in use.

Perhaps you can get involved in updating clinical guidance on DSD so that the anatomical terms used better reflect your ideology.

That's pretty much it. There are DSDs that affect males and DSDs that affect women. Having a DSD doesn't make someone less of a man or a woman, anymore than being born without a leg makes someone less of a human. As I said upthread, I was born with a facial disfigurement, I've actually had people suggest I was an alien before, so I have some sort of idea about what it must be like to have people claim that you are intersex or that a man's lack of external testicles is actually a vagina. Though luckily for me, my disfigurement is almost completely cosmetic, the disabling components can be remedied by medical treatment and the cancer I'm at higher risk of is almost fully treatable.

But we're seeing people who do have DSDs, who do have serious physical issues to come to terms with, have their conditions used as a weapon this week. It's horrible. I know that their conditions are outside of the realm of most people's experience, so I get people not knowing that they aren't intersex, that people aren't born with male but with female genitalia. But to continue to argue the point after being shown that they are wrong, while pretending that they are good and kind, is genuinely awful.

But you are wrong. People with XY chromosomes and a DSD can be born with external genitalia that is feminine to the extent that they are sexed as female as birth and their DSD is not diagnosed until puberty. I don't know why this fact is so upsetting to you but it doesn't make it less of a fact.

I completely agree that this does not mean they are biologically female and I agree that they should not therefore compete in female sport. Nevertheless it isn't a fabrication to say that some people with XY DSD do not become aware of it until puberty and that must be highly distressing from them having not unreasonably believed themselves to be a normal female for their entire lives to that point. This situation is worthy of compassion and not contempt and suspicion. It is possible not to refer to people with XY DSD raised as female with absolute contempt and literal denial of the biological reality of their anatomy, and to feel at the same time that they should not compete in women's sport.

You deliberately left out the word blind, which is important in the context it's written, as it means that it's not one, ie false.

It's like how the term sans serif, means without serif. Blind vaginal pouch, specifically means false in this context.

That's not what blind means and I think you know it. It means doesn't lead anywhere.

You don't want to admit that you insulted and swore at me for using a valid medical term that I didn't invent, because it triggered something in you. Fine.

I am not wrong. Nobody looks at a baby with 5ard and sees female genitalia. Throughout history it was referred to as visually ambiguous genitalia and men with the condition were considered to be hermaphrodites, not women. Nobody ever thought they were female, sometimes they attempted to raise those children as girls. Not because they really thought they were girls but because they hoped that was the right thing to do.

But we now know enough to know that humans are never, ever hermaphroditic. There is no intersex, there is no male born with female genitalia. So seriously, stop trying to double down on ignorance.

It is what blind means in the context of a pouch actually. It comes from the latin caecus and is used most typically in reference to the caecum in the digestive system. And is extrapolated from that to the other occurrences of blind pouches. the term blind vagina pouch does specify that it is not in anyway a vagina. You didn't use a valid medical term when you omitted the third of the term that completely changes the meaning.

Better write to the authors of this case study where that is exactly what happened.

https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/s-0035-1549085?device=mobile&innerWidth=360&offsetWidth=360

Google "delayed diagnosis 5-ARD" and you will discover article after article fully referenced describing this exact situation.

Listen, I respect your wish to protect women's spaces, a wish that I share. It is not necessary to deny medical reality for a small number of people with DSD to achieve that goal.

Did you actually read that? That's a description of a child being experimented upon? It's genuinely horrific on every level.

It really doesn't achieve whatever you think it does.

Progressive virilisation was stopped using GnRH-analogs to gain time. At the request of the 14 year old patient female pubertal development was inducted. Antisocial behaviour affected compliance. Virilisation proceeded when treatment was finished by the patient. Peer counselling by other affected family members encouraged the patient to adopt the male gender role. Now the patient poses questions about fertility, genital reconstruction and sexual life.

It is not necessary to deny medical reality for a small number of people with DSD to achieve that goal

That is literally what you are doing when you claim that males can be born with female genitalia.

I am engaging you on your claim that it is not possible for a diagnosis of XY DSD to be delayed until puberty, such that the individual with disorder believes until that point that they are female, and is raised as such. Edit: to be clear, this is because their external genitalia is feminine.

Clearly your claim, which is that this is not possible, which you have repeated many times, whilst swearing and calling me names - is wrong. There is a lot of medical literature describing this exact situation. The case study mentioned, however you feel about the treatment approach taken, is a very clear example.