Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

[Fetlocksblowininthewind]

Just thought I'd share this in it's own thread in case it gets lost in the other one.

It's still not right what's happened but I'm pleased to see this, the IBA know she was cheated!

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif | The Independent

"This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous".

Indeed it is. I can only assume biology is no longer taught at school.

It's ridiculous how many people are dense enough to think that the fact that Khelif, Lin or any other XY boxer in the women's category has lost plenty of fights is somehow evidence that there's no advantage. They must be very dense, or not understand what "advantage" means.

If you are playing a dice-roll game where one opponent has dice numbered 1-6 and the other has numbers 2-7 then player 2 has a clear advantage but they will not always win. That doesn't mean it a fair game.

In boxing you are competing for something where there's a combination of skill, reaction time, fitness and strength required.

If a boxer has XY chromosomes and is not insensitive to testosterone (complete insensitivity seems unlikely from what I've seen) then reaction time and strength will be affected by male advantage. It would still be possible for an XX woman to win a match against them if her fitness and skill were significantly higher but that doesn't make it a fair fight. The dice are loaded.

It would be like making some of the runners on a track race wear kilogram weights on their ankles while others don't. It doesn't matter exactly how many people with the ankle weights make it to the podium - maybe some will if their fitness is way higher than the average of the rest of the runners - but the race cannot have been a fair one and the only solution is to have one podium for those without ankle weights and a second podium for those who have them

I don't think that somebody with XY chromosomes should compete within female sport. A line has to be drawn.

However, there isn't enough information to conclude that Imane Khelif is a "cheating man". It's possible that Imane Khelif was born with entirely female genitalia, not merely ambiguous and may have had no idea about the Y chromosome until after her boxing career had already begun. There is evidence in the form of childhood photographs that clearly supports this. To receive this diagnosis at or after puberty would be devastating to anyone, and most of all a sportsperson aspiring to a professional career.

I think it is cruel and unnecessary to misgender Imane and altogether it is important to completely separate discussion of DSD from discussion related to being "trans". It is possible to feel that Imane should not compete in female sport whilst recognising what a personal tragedy that is for her and having some compassion for her position. She did not ask for her biology to be this way and she is intersex, not a man.

Pictures of a child in a dress are not a free pass to punch women in the face and steal their dreams.

Getting told you thought one thing but actually it's another, isn't either. Sad for the individual but it begins and ends there. It's not on the entire world to prop up one person's imagined self.

Males don't belong in women's sport. End of story.

This must never ever happen again and we must revert to material reality, and fairness for women and girls.

Intersex is an outdated term for Disorder of Sexual Development.

A person is still either male or female, with a DSD.

There is no third sex which is what 'Intersex' implies.

It might not seem respectful to refer to them as 'he' or a 'man' but it's important in these discussions to be clear and avoid this kind of confusion. Especially as the media is not being.

They knew they are a male and still competed in the women's category. I call that cheating.

Regardless of how sad it may be for them to not compete as a woman, they don't deserve to shatter someone else's dreams to make themselves feel better.

Disorders of sexual development are sex specific. "Intersex" is an old fashioned term that some people still use today. It does not mean what some people think it means.

@ElleMD80 I went on Khalid's Instagram not one picture of a hijab in personal or training shots.

@ResisterOfTwaddleRex

On the fundamental point I don't disagree. I have stated clearly that I believe Imane Khelif should not be permitted to compete as a female boxer because of the importance of integrity, safety and fairness in the sport.

But some of the language used characterises Imane as someone "pretending" to be female. From her perspective, she is female and has always been female. It is very different to have a girls body and be raised a girl, and then to undergo this devastating revelation about your biology +/- virilising changes at or after puberty, vs being a normal biological male who decides at some point that their inner self is female (whatever that means). It's wrong to conflate these experiences by using words such as "imagined self" and not-so-subtlely equating her to a male domestic abuser. Female is how she was born and how she was raised. She didn't "choose" a female identity.

This could literally happen to my daughter, she's never had a karotype check, why would she? Would she cease to be the daughter I've raised? All I'm trying to say is we can talk about fairness in women's sport without needing to bring Imane's identity into it, in a cruel way. After all we are agreeing this is about biology, not identity.

So I agree she cannot compete but I have compassion for her and I don't view her as a man. Imane has some innate biological traits in keeping with a man and others in keeping with a woman. In my opinion those with DSD are truly the only people who should be allowed to decide their legal sex (but I agree, not to compete in female sport).

There are also testosterone limits in female sport? If an XX athlete has excess testosterone and is virilised as a result they may also not be able to compete but we can understand without the need to say she is a cheating man and lose all empathy for her position. If Imane is banned from the sport (which, I do agree should happen) her life and livelihood will be destroyed and that is through no fault of her own - chiefly it will because the rules around female sport are inconsistent and unclear and so it is possible (probable?) that intersex female teenagers will be pushed toward professional sport.

I hope that clarifies my position. X

@AstonScrapingsNameChange thank you for the correction

I think if I had been in Imam Kalif’s shoes I would have suppressed any hint of the knowledge. It would have been too horrifying.
Why horrifying? Since Khelif has never had menses and would have gone through male puberty, those two things alone would have made it quite clear that he is - and has been since conception - a male person.

Khelif and Lin are men. Referring to one or both as "she" is disrespectful and belittling to all women and girls.

@Tinylittleunicorn
Please will you desist from using the word intersex. As other posters have mentioned, this is highly insulting to people with DSD.

Thank you I did go through the post and edit but missed one and the editing window is closed. It was not my intention to use an offensive term.

I think what is surely as insulting to people with DSD is referring to someone born and raised with a female identity, who has chosen to keep that identity, as a cheating abusive man though? If we are concerned about the feelings of those with a DSD that they did not choose to have?

Edit: We can determine that an XY person with DSD and female genitalia & upbringing does not qualify for female competitive sport, with compassion and without completely robbing them of a female identity that they were born and raised with, and did not in any sense "choose" to have. This is about biology not identity so I don't see the need to be cruel and offensive about Imane's identity. That's all I'm trying to say.

I completely understand that Khelif may have assumed they were female throughout much of their childhood. The boxing federation have not been clear what test they failed, whilst the IOC seem to take eligibility for women’s events from passports, so we are all making assumptions.

However the assumption of a DSD sounds reasonable. Khelif will know if they menustrate. Khelif will know that a simple cheek swab would confirm that they have XX chromosomes.

If Khelif is really a woman this could be sorted quickly. Money is involved so they may not want it sorted. It’s looking like the IOC don’t want it sorted either.

@Tinylittleunicorn it matters not what Khelif's perspective is. It matters what's real. And therefore fair. And therefore safe.

Still none of the whataboutery ever cares for the perspective of females

Have I said once that I think Imane Khelif should be allowed to participate in women's sport? Can you explain what you're talking about in relation to what I've said please?

If there is no reason to be cruel and insulting, I think it matters to choose not to be. I actually think that being cruel about Imane Khelif and making equivalences that she has a male identity but has merely pretended to have a female identity to cheat at boxing (despite the evidence that she was raised as a girl and has DSD therefore in all likelihood never chose a female identity but was born and raised with one) is actually unhelpful/obfuscating of the need to recognise that this isn't personal and her identity isn't relevant.

It is possible she has felt like a man since whatever age and maybe even she's a horrible man who wants to hurt women. I think it's more likely she feels she is a woman and just want to pursue her dream of being a professional boxer. But it literally doesn't matter because only her biology matters to the safety, fairness and integrity of the sport. Therefore she should.not compete. But brining in this speculation about her basically being an evil man is not helpful, quite the opposite.

Oh do stop spouting nonsense.This is a male, having knowingly gone through male puberty, choosing to step into the ring to hit a female.
Also, stop the race baiting by bringing in Black women to back up your ridiculous ideas.

Nope. If that were the case Khelif would have bones too brittle to make a career out of professional, Olympic level boxing. It's not remotely possible that Khelif is anything other than a man.

You’re talking as if Algeria along with other “conservative Middle Eastern countries” are stuck in the Victorian era in terms of medical advances. In reality, they have doctors that are as well educated as those in the UK. Stop dumbing them down.
Khalif has used his condition as a way of achieving sporting success, thats why he chose it.

Can you explain please why Khelif would have bones too brittle to make a career in boxing if she has a DSD?

As I understand there are a number of athletes XY with DSD who have competed / are competing in professional women's sport (hence why this has become a hot button issue)? Have I misunderstood you? Caster Semenya is a famous example born with female genitalia, a female upbringing and identity but DSD & XY chromosomes. Her bones were not too brittle for her to succeed in women's athletics.

I think this is quite likely to be a similar situation.

That's not what I said. You postulated that Khelif could have been born with female genitalia. That would only be possible if Khelif had Swyer's Syndrome, ie a woman with a Y Chromosome. Osteopenia and severe risk of Osteoporosis is comorbid with Swyers Syndrome. Becoming a world class boxer would be impossible.

Plenty of people with DSDs can be boxers, but not those with a vagina and a y chromosome.

Semenya is a man with 46xy 5 alpha reductase. He is a man with internal testes and a micro penis. That's almost certainly what Khelif has too.

Lack of visibly obvious penis doesn't make female genitalia. We've got of our things going on, not lack of penis.

Please don't lump everyone with DSDs together. There are a range of disorders and the people born with them are still either men or women. It's really offensive and often hurtful to talk about them as if they are the same and not actually men and women

Khelif is 25. The truth about about their biology won't have just been discovered 2 days ago. At the point a person knows they are not female and they have significant advantage over female athletes is the point they should stop. Once they take that decision to continue and everyone colludes with the lie is where all the sympathy ends.

There's a very good chance it was known by many including Khelif before embarking on a professional boxing career on the international stage.

When you say, “ You”, to be clear
no poster here said that. Those words are from the person speaking in the link.

A poor village child born a boy, but with a DSD, was most likely thought to be a girl at birth without any expert doctors contradicting that idea.

People witb XY DSD including 5-ASD deficiency and CAIS can be born with fully female external genitalia and a vaginal pouch such that they are not distinguished from an XX female infant at birth. I'm sorry but that's just the truth you'll have to look it up if you don't believe me. Internally they will not have female reproductive organs but that is not something that will always have been established in those cases where investigations weren't performed - either because atypical genitalia went unnoticed or genitalia appeared entitely female and there were no indications of a DSD.

XY with DSD can go undiagnosed, be raised with a female identity and then discover their DSD at adolescence (through lack of menstruation if nothing else). There are case studies and plenty of medical literature referring to exactly this.

In women's sport this is causing a problem because of the lack of consistency and clarity as to exactly what the rules are on participation. It is possible that there are coaches selecting adolescent girls who are XY with emergent DSD for professional careers. Those young athletes are in a difficult position and I feel sorry for them. It would be better for them if it was clear as soon as a diagnosis of XY DSD was confirmed that women's sport was off the table. But as long as it is on the table they are going to face enormous personal incentives and pressure to continue a career in which they are excelling.

I agree that XY chromosomes should preclude participation in professional women's sports / women's sporting competitions such as the olympics but it is not true that every DSD athlete who finds themselves in the position of Caster Semenya or Imane Khelif is some kind of villainous man who has always known they are a man.

Yet Caster Semenya and Imane Khelif who both have a DSD identify as female and want to be referred to as female. So it is not me who is speaking "for" people with DSD or lumping them altogether on this thread. It is other people referring to these people as men who are overriding their preference, not treating them as individuals and insulting them*.

*Which is incidentally, completely unnecessary and unhelpful in a discussion about whether they should be allowed to participate in women's sport.