Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

[Fetlocksblowininthewind]

Just thought I'd share this in it's own thread in case it gets lost in the other one.

It's still not right what's happened but I'm pleased to see this, the IBA know she was cheated!

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif | The Independent

No. I base my language in reality. If someone has 46xy 5ard they are male and they are a man. Semenya is a man. Khelif is a man.

As for your other post, there is no such thing as a vaginal pouch. I mean honestly, wtaf!!!!!! That's an outrageous claim and description.

A man with 46xy 5ard does not have a vulva, no labia, inner and outer, no clitoiris and no vagina. A vagina is a closed muscular canal. It's a real thing, not a fucking pouch. A very small penis is not a clitoris, a pouch is not a vagina, excess skin where the testes should have been is not a vulva.

Women's genitalia are not an absence of male genitalia, what a disgusting idea.

And I don't really need to look it up. I know quite a lot more about it than you do.

I think you did not see that while I explained why I had said ‘she’ in the particular context of imagining Khalif’s perception of himself from birth and when growing up, in the end I agreed with some other posters that it was confusing and I would henceforth say ‘he’.

My imagination of what it might be like for a person to find out they are not the sex they thought they were is different from yours. I may of course be wrong. Perhaps surges of testosterone and a growing ability at boxing gave Khalif confidence, and a thrilling recognition that he was male, and he knew his family would accept him being that way.

This is all separate from the question of whether or not he should be boxing with women. Of course he shouldn’t.

@Tinylittleunicorn Khelif, Yu-ting & Semenya (+ the others that have competed in high level female sports) are male.

You can tell us to Be Kind till you're blue in the face, but the damage has been done to female rights, sports, single sex spaces... and on, and on, and on...

It just won't wash any more!

Why not Be Kind to females instead for a change of pace, or is it just required that we all only ever Be Kind to males?

And by the way. What the actual fuck do you think this week has been like for people with disorders of sexual development having to listen to the whole world talk ignorant shit about them?

Men with 46XY 5ARD, are men. Real men with a disorder. Women with Swyer's Syndrome, real women with a disorder. They aren't a political fucking football to be mused over and spoken about with lies.

Just imagine being a teenage boy right now with 46xy. He'd have his family and doctors telling him that he is male, he was not born with female parts and then you have people on the internet spouting off that they were born with a vagina. I was born with a facial disfiguration and that was hard enough to come to terms with. I've heard more than my own fair share of bullshit speculation about what is wrong with me and what it means. And that was bad enough.

I personally agree re athletes should stop when they are discovered to have XY chromosomes.

However I also think that Khelif is likely to sincerely identify as a woman (as she was raised) and feel she has a right to be there. Her belief that she has a right to be there will have been reinforced by her cultural background, her coach, everyone that has supported her, and indeed it seems the Olympics officials - so it isn't like she's completely alone. She will have worked hard. She will have to sacrifice a lot to let go of the belief that she should be there. It's not something everyone can do. Many/most of us protect our beliefs even when they are wrong. Even more so when there are incredible personal incentives for doing so and if there are massive sunk costs.

That is not to take away from the work and sacrifice of other female athletes such as Angela Carini - I truly feel for her and believe she has been failed terribly as have the other female boxing competitors. This should not have happened the rules should be clear. Imane Khelif should have quit women's boxing as a teenager when her DSD was discovered.

Nevertheless she did not choose to have a DSD or to be raised with a female identity.

I disagree with Khelif's (in this case presumed, but let's go with it) belief that she should participate in women's sport. I agree (with you) that it is not safe, fair or in the interests of women's sport as a valid competition for her do so.

But I don't need for her to be a 2 dimensional villain for that to be the case and I really think it is very unnecessary and hurtful to repeatedly refer to her as a man when she has a DSD and was raised with and clearly maintains a female identity (this is very different in my opinion to being a biologically normal male raised with a male identity and then adopting a female one). I think society (if not women's sports for overriding reasons of safety, fairness and integrity of the sport) can make some accomodations to the very very few number of people with XY DSD and identified as female at birth, an already very stigmatised (and surely traumatising if diagnosed at puberty) condition. Least of all, allowing them to continue the female identities they have possessed for their entire lives.

Show me where he maintains a female identity, all the posts I have seen he seems to be living and dressing as male.

She maintains a female identity by asking to be referred to as a woman and referring to herself as a woman. She was clearly raised as female and there are XY DSDs that can account for this.

Do I need to go through photos of Imane Khalif and see what she is wearing to decide whether she has a female identity? I think it's more relevant than she has genitalia that was identified as female at birth and was raised as a girl unknowing her DSD status (if this is true, of course). I think this is a situation where if she asks, it is fair to allow her to continue that identity regardless of her haircut or clothes.

Haircut or clothes as deciding whether someone is male or female is irrelevant to me as a GC feminist I am interested in the bodies people are born in and they way they were socialised/raised as children. Clearly (to me) this is complex in DSD and I disagree with the cruel absolutism that XY = man, (in the context of DSD only). I think people who actually have DSD are individuals whose opinion on their gender identity actually matters and should be respected, as a separate issue as to whether they should be allowed to participate in women's sport.

If she is identifying as female only because she wants to compete in women's boxing - problem solved because her identity should be irrelevant to whether she competes in women's boxing. Make the rules of the competition clear, but treat people with DSD with respect by allowing them to let us know the sex they wish to be known as, not forcing them to change their name and whole identity at puberty which would be unspeakably cruel (in cases where diagnosis is delayed to puberty - which despite a previous posters assertions is possible).

I've not seen any evidence that known athletes with this type of male DSD maintain female identities into adulthood anywhere other than on the sports field. So I think you're projecting a bit there. Maybe there are some but I've yet to see any much in the way of evidence.

Caster Semenya appears to live stereotypically as a man outside of sport even to the point of talking about women as 'other'. By that I mean there are interviews where he frequently refers to women as 'them' and not as you would expect 'us'. It's also rumoured the the children he has with his wife are biologically his. Obviously we cannot know this for a fact but we do know that medical science helps men with internal testes extract sperm so it's not an impossibility.

Personally I think it's mentally healthier to support males with DSDs to come to terms with a male identity if they discover it outside of infant hood/ early childhood.

Reinforcing a female identity I doubt actually helps them in the long run and if it wasn't for the opportunity of a lucrative sporting career and people around them wanting to exploit that I suspect few would be encouraging them to stay female identifying.

I'm sorry but I can't believe you really care about being respectful to people with DSD whilst referring to Caster Semenya as a man - a person who actually has DSD, was raised as female and has been absolutely clear she sees herself and wishes to be referred to as woman.

Give me strength! Where has he said he wants to be female? He knew he wasn't female when he went through male puberty, he knew he was male when he took up womens boxing. I am sorry he was lied to as a child, i'm sure puberty was hard for him, but I see no evidence of him identifying as female other than beating up women and cheating in the boxing ring!

Caster is man, he's fathered children, it don't get more male than that!

Caster has to say that publicly to remain in female sport though. It's very obvious that privately this is not the case at all.

If any of these males with DSDs were to publicly say 'actually I see myself as a man' then even the IOC couldn't justify allowing them to stay in the sport they make their money from.

Honestly I don't find it surprising that the gender identity of someone with DSD would be complex. But I think, in the specific context of DSD, gender identity is surely something that the affected person has to grapple with themselves. I think it would be very cruel, to take a person raised as female, with a female name, a female identity, a female childhood - and impose a new male identity based on a previously unknown to them Y chromosome and internal testes when they have explicitly asked us not to do so. I cannot imagine the trauma, stigma and confusion of being raised as female and then undergoing a male puberty and discovering you are male. A lot of people without DSD are still working themselves out in their 20s! These are a small number of individuals meeting absolute criteria outwith their control, there's no slippery slope when it comes to showing them some compassion.

We can let people with DSD work out their gender identity themselves, follow their lead, and be calm, empathetic and respectful about them - and at the same time say, sorry you are in this position but you cannot compete in women's sport.

Okay that is a fair point! I don't know I am just going on what Caster herself has apparently said.

I think the important thing is keeping the integrity, fairness and safety of women's sports by saying XY chromosomes means you cannot participate. I do not know these athlete's innermost thoughts and I accept that I cannot know them. Ultimately, I don't think it is relevant as to whether Caster Semenya/Imane Khalif/any other athlete in this position is an unfortunate victim who totally sees themselves as female as they were raised, or a fraud playing the system. I doubt any person can be reduced to such a simple caricature.

In the presence of uncertainty, and where it should have nothing to do with the actual outcome (which is whether or not a person can compete) I think these things should be impersonal and non judgemental. Eg Athlete X has XY chromosomes so they aren't eligible. We don't have to make any (potentially very unfair and hurtful) assumptions about their gender identity, character or intentions it's just a fact. I would prefer to err on the side of not adding stigma to DSD and not villainising these athletes with DSD. As it is not necessary to do so to protect women's sport, it detracts because it gives the impression that the position of saying they should not participate is one of suspicion and hatred of people with XY DSD - where the focus should be simply upon protecting women's sport.

Imane Khalif might be the nicest person in the world but if her punch is stronger because of male biology then she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Ergo it is not necessary to speculate on her character / identity etc. She is a stranger to us all.

Imane Khalif might be the nicest person in the world but if her punch is stronger because of male biology then she shouldn't be in women's boxing. Ergo it is not necessary to speculate on her character / identity etc. She is a stranger to us all.

Honestly though do male people of good character participate in the sport of the opposite sex? Especially boxing, knowing that not only does it harm women by taking from them but also that there's substantial possibility you could cause a woman life changing injuries or death?

I don't see anything wrong with pointing this out. I think it's a pretty big hint as to character. Especially as there will be male people out there in the world with the same or similar DSD who have chosen not to do this.

Thread about an excellent essay from the Co owner of Reduxx who first reported on this.
She adresses all the bullshit.
In arguing with those wether in bad faith or ignorant, this is all you need.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5134185-co-owner-of-reddux-writes-a-timeline-of-the-growing-discussion-around-iba-truth-and-ioc-truth?reply=137283617

Caster Semenya only wishes to be referred to as a woman in sport, where his male physiology gives him an advantage over actual women and therefore has financial benefits.

Semenya lives as a male outside sport and has done since puberty. This is a photo of Semenya in schooldays, top left, with two fellow pupils, a boy in the boys' uniform and a girl in the girls' uniform. Which is Semenya wearing?

First time I’ve heard testicles (even internal) being called female body parts. Obvious male level testosterone production causing virilisation from the liathróidi (Irish for ‘balls’).

Everyone in the world is a female then. The men and the women.

Whatever was thought when Khelif was a child would have been seriously questioned at puberty - when Khelif went on to develop according to male puberty, and not according to female puberty. No breast development and no menstruation. This would certainly have led to further medical investigation, especially in a country in which all girls are expected to go on to get married and have children.

It is obvious that people must have known that something was 'not right'; not as expected, from quite an early age. 12 is about the time that puberty kicks in. Nobody gets to age 20 -fully post pubertal and with development of the opposite sex characteristics without query. Nobody.

Caster Semenya's first love was football.....but as girls football was not really the thing then as it is now, instead Semenya was chanelled into athletics where they could compete as a girl. The sports' bodies of the countries in question have taken advanatage of the ambiguous nature of the situation for their own needs, and to provide an outlet for all of that clearly male energy supposedly housed in a girl ( but who has the body of a boy)

The good news for men with 5 ards is that they have good fertility treatment nowadays which will help them become fathers. They do something with the type of immature sperm they produce and can ‘bring them on’ so to speak. They then can fertilise the ovum of a woman. Men with Semenya’s condition can father children with this intervention.

Am I supposed to pretend male sperm is female now too, I wonder?

Caster Semenya talks, acts, behaves exactly like a man, and appears to have been raised as a man.

@Tinylittleunicorn i don't care what this boxer thinks he is. I don't care if he thinks he is the queen of Sheba. What I do care about is that a man with a DSD is pounding a woman in the boxing ring when he just shouldn't be there.
You know sometimes people need a dose of reality. We all want things that aren't going to happen and a person with a DSD is no different. If a proper DNA test was done and it was proved he was a man with a DSD then he can get on with his life knowing the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. That's life.

This. Especially at elite level sport. The olympics is brutal. Plenty of people have dreams shattered because they aren’t good enough or suffer an injury or are disqualified. It’s shit for them. But that’s the nature of playing sport at the very top level.

I get that this is awful for any athletes caught in a media storm. That’s the IOC’s fault for failing to have proper criteria. If it had kept chromosome testing we wouldn’t have this issue because everyone could be confident all athletes are entitled to be there.

He does seem to think he's the Queen of Sheba!!!

There is plenty of information out there now that proves imane is male.
It will I'm sure all come out soon but at puberty did no one notice imane not having periods? Got worried why imane wasnt having periods and looked very male?
As for the pictures, look at the most famous trans person in Florida, for many years they could have passed until (not at all remarkably) puberty, from then on, they looked more male everyday.

Anyway there are more recent pictures of imane that look like imane is Male, likes Male type clothing,doing Male type things etc. I'm certain imane knows all about the dsd and chromosomes.

As for the "completely separate discussion of trans and dsd", what in the fuck do you think weve been saying for actual decades now. It is not us who conflated the two things. We and dsd people have been saying since oh around the 1990s to quit trying to meld the two things, they are very different.

I can have compassion for imane, but remember Angela, the woman who's dreams were shattered, she needs compassion too.

Maybe NOW we can all stop conflating trans and dsd, for the good of women.