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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA

185 replies

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 15:07

Just thought I'd share this in it's own thread in case it gets lost in the other one.

It's still not right what's happened but I'm pleased to see this, the IBA know she was cheated!

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money by IBA despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif | The Independent

Angela Carini to be awarded prize money despite Olympic loss to Imane Khelif

The Italian pulled out in the first round against the Algerian amid a gender row at Paris 2024

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/olympics-angela-carini-imane-khelif-boxing-b2590515.html

OP posts:
ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 03/08/2024 17:51

The BBC is showing the fight on 1. In the intro, the female presenter (whose name escapes me) says:

"Now the Hungarian Boxing Association has protested the decision at Khelif's participation but the IOC has staunchly defended its decision to allow this athlete to compete"

And did not refer to him as female in any way.

Bravo

GladAllOver · 03/08/2024 17:53

This would be so easy to resolve.
Olympic athletes are given drug tests. Do the chromosome test at the same time to ensure they are performing in the correct event.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 17:53

FlipFlops4Me · 03/08/2024 17:39

Does Khelif wear hijab? Most women do in Algeria. Not the niqab but surely they should wear hijab?

I am sorry, I forgot who posted this earlier but it has the answer
to your question.

https://x.com/SashaLPC/status/1819764151293821174

cultural context and the role of the IOC (and whether Khalif “knows he’s a man”) First off, I am hesitant to analyze someone else’s life in this forum, but on the public world stage of the Olympics, Iman Khalif’s status has become a point of debate so I’ll say tentatively a few things…

I’ve been watching Arabic interviews (and translating with help from my tutor) for the last few days to try and understand the context around Iman Khalif. Khalif has clearly been raised as a girl. Photos of her childhood show her in typical female attire. In interviews, in fact, great sympathy is extended to her because she came from a poor family with separated parents and as a child, she took on a lot of responsibility to help her mother. This is seen as a hardship not appropriate to place on girls so it’s a point of sympathy in those conversations.

And Hijab is NOT required for women in Algeria, so images of Khalif in adulthood with short hair and no Hijab are not at all proof that she lives “as a man.” Then again I’m sure strangers looking at Khalif have perceived her as a man because she is clearly masculinized. But to people who know her and in all interviews I’ve seen, she’s a woman.

Gender nonconformity (though looked down upon in the ME) does happen. But known cross-sex dressing in the Arab world does not imply trans or cross-sex identity. It’s just not a concept there as it is in the west. And Iman wearing men’s clothes does not mean she saw herself as a man or that anyone else intimately in her life saw her that way either. In a conservative, Islamic Middle Eastern countries, genital anatomy is the foundation for understanding biological sex.

If she does have ARD5 (which has been suggested as a hypothesis by knowledgeable scientists and other individuals), then she was likely born with pretty typical-looking female genitalia. Even after discovering the anomalies of the DSD around puberty (becoming extremely masculinized) intersex conditions are highly taboo and not well understood. There is no concept of an “intersex person” - Iman likely perceives herself as a woman with a strange condition It’s culturally impossible for her family to say at her puberty, “oops we guess Iman is really a guy”. People in the West cannot fully grasp the cultural context and social consequences of such a declaration.

Interestingly, my teacher (a highly educated woman in Cairo in her 30s) suspected that upon discovering their daughter would be much more masculine than other girls, perhaps her parents thought it would be best to put her in a sport which might house other masculine girls and women: boxing.

Just a guess of course, as we have no idea why Khalif chose the sport, but remember that in the Middle East helping your child to blend in naturally with their own birth-sex is among the most important things you can do for them. So my point here is yes, biologically Khalif is actually male, but even after learning about the DSD, is still conceptualizing herself as female.

This context does NOT alter the answer in the question of ethics: Is it wrong for the IOC to have standards which allow DSD males (regardless of their social or legal identity) to compete against biological women?

x.com

https://x.com/SashaLPC/status/1819764151293821174

porridgecake · 03/08/2024 17:54

Sensible man on now. Carini had to choose between her career and her life/brain damage/permanent disability.

Arconialiving · 03/08/2024 17:57

OvaHere · 03/08/2024 16:26

The losses can be explained by the talent of the very best female boxers.

Males who compete in female sport wouldn't cut it in the male competition because they're just not talented enough to make the cut. If they could it's guaranteed they'd be over there where the money and glory is 10 x more than in female sport.

Female sport is treated like a consolation prize for them but brute strength will only take you so far in some events and against some competitors. A small number of women will be so talented in their field they can compensate for his strength by outmanoeuvring him in other ways.

However that doesn't take away from all the women these men do harm and the places, medals, prize money etc. they also take along the way.

They should not ever be in the female competition regardless of a few losses.

Well said!

GrumpyPanda · 03/08/2024 17:59

stormstormystormstorm · 03/08/2024 16:05

Am genuinely not being inflammatory, but DH and I just had the same discussion, where he told me that she was always female. I had not understood this or heard it from anyone else, other than DH and the above poster.

Where can I find the information to say that this is due to an DSD and male puberty ?

The IOC itself inadvertently admitted it's about a DSD!

https://x.com/iocmedia/status/1819667573698445793

x.com

https://x.com/iocmedia/status/1819667573698445793

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 18:20

@ResisterOfTwaddleRex
Is the woman crouching wearing a hijab Khalif, or the person next to her?

The person in the white jacket in the other image is Khalif, I think. Looking at that picture it seems he is willing to ignore Algerian ideas about what a woman should look like, even if in the West most would not think anything of a woman dressing in a typically masculine way if they want to.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 18:31

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 17:42

I think if I had been in Imam Kalif’s shoes I would have suppressed any hint of the knowledge. It would have been too horrifying. Then as time went on I would have been relieved to be told by coaches and the IOC that I was a really a woman, and let it slide. I am sure I too would have been weak, especially with my country counting on me and the possibility of my masculinity being taboo in my society.

That's why it should not be up to someone like Khalif.

As everyone here on this thread mostly knows Iman is XY, I did not think it would be confusing to say ‘she’ about this person who genuinely thought they were a woman for so long.

I had written ‘they’ at first, and thought of ‘he’ too and usually write those. Somehow though it did not feel quite right here where the point was what Khalif’s point of view might have been.

As everyone here on this thread mostly knows Iman is XY, I did not think it would be confusing to say ‘she’ about this person who genuinely thought they were a woman for so long.

I had written ‘they’ at first, and thought of ‘he’ too and usually write those. Somehow though it did not feel quite right here where the point was what Khalif’s point of view might have been.

I kind of get where you are coming from, but in the interest of clear language, telling the truth about reality, and for the avoidance of doubt for any lurkers who maybe aren't as well versed in this as the regular posters here, I think it's really important to avoid "she". Words really do have meaning, and it is important for everyone that we do not dilute those words till they become meaningless nonsense. No one benefits from that... well men do.

I am a pretty compassionate person, but I refuse to be bullied and coerced into colluding with the lies & I refuse to perpetuate the falsehoods that have inevitably lead us here. Be kind can get in the bin right now.

Where is be kind for women in any of this bastardisation of words?

I'm not sure I'm articulating myself particularly well on this today, my brain feels like utter mush today.

OP posts:
Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 18:33

I don't mean to be offensive (and I don't think I am being tbh) but I don't really think Khelif's feelings or point of view is the important bit here really.

I may have compassion for it, but it's not my focus and doesn't detract from the need to say things in a truthful and clear way.

Khelif is male.

OP posts:
Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 18:36

And (sorry for multi posting!), it's pure speculation on whether Khelif himself believes he is a woman.

Quite honestly I doubt that too, given his own twitter shows he seems to be living as a man - and also that from what I've read (if it's true, I'm not on twitter so can't check for myself) he's deleted a number of his pictures since Monday IIRC, which I also find quite telling.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 18:38

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 18:33

I don't mean to be offensive (and I don't think I am being tbh) but I don't really think Khelif's feelings or point of view is the important bit here really.

I may have compassion for it, but it's not my focus and doesn't detract from the need to say things in a truthful and clear way.

Khelif is male.

Ok, I take your point, and also, since seeing a photo of him from Resister, I feel he may be aware of himself being XY, and just taking advantage of the IOC rules going his way.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 18:42

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 18:38

Ok, I take your point, and also, since seeing a photo of him from Resister, I feel he may be aware of himself being XY, and just taking advantage of the IOC rules going his way.

Thank you, yes it's pretty damning really isn't it?

And I have not expressed myself particularly well above, I'd like to clarify when I say I have "compassion for it" I mean Khelifs feelings and point of view, I am absolutely not referring to Khelif as "it" - that would be terribly dehumanising language and really very wrong of anyone to say!

OP posts:
OvaHere · 03/08/2024 18:42

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 18:38

Ok, I take your point, and also, since seeing a photo of him from Resister, I feel he may be aware of himself being XY, and just taking advantage of the IOC rules going his way.

If we put these 2 boxers and the 3 800m runners from the 2016 Rio olympics in a room big brother style do you think we'd see them all treating each other as 'other' women?

Nah. I don't think so.

Omlettes · 03/08/2024 18:46

OhDoStoppit · 03/08/2024 15:48

She wasn't 'cheated' she was not as good as her competitor, whether by training or luck of size.

Khelif was born a woman, has female body parts and has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won.

This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous.

A woman being bigger than another woman means she's 'cheating'?? Talk about a bunch of snowflakes. Must we also cancel Serena Williams for being too powerful? Simone Biles because her petite size helps her in her sport?? Any woman with PCOS who has higher testosterone levels???

I absolutely agree that TRANSwomen should not be competing against women, but this is not what this was.

"This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous. '
But you are talking about yourself!
Bizarre, and so profoundly offensive to those with DSDs

Notaflippinclue · 03/08/2024 18:52

As KJK so eloquently put it - "he's a man"!

halava · 03/08/2024 18:58

What did Angela apologise for please?

Her opponent is a male. Who can tell if his backstory is true or not. Algeria is not exactly a society of open unbiased media and communication I'd say. The hierarchy of men in Islam is something to be remembered also.

AnnieMcFanny · 03/08/2024 19:00

ElleMD80 · 03/08/2024 15:57

Never seen in a hijab, even when the trainer is wearing a hijab: Khelif is a man.

I know more Algerians women who don’t wear a Hijab than those who do. It’s not so common in women from Algeria and Morocco for eg.

Fetlocksblowininthewind · 03/08/2024 19:04

halava · 03/08/2024 18:58

What did Angela apologise for please?

Her opponent is a male. Who can tell if his backstory is true or not. Algeria is not exactly a society of open unbiased media and communication I'd say. The hierarchy of men in Islam is something to be remembered also.

The poor woman, I think she was forced/coerced into apologising.

She basically apologised for saying it wasn't fair (it wasn't, she was right the first time!), apologised for crying (I would have too!), apologised for refusing to shake his hand (well he did also sexually assault her by touching her breast and then practically chased her around trying to touch her!), for walking away when his hand was held up (Angela your instincts were correct, it was disgusting what happened to you!), and said she'd "embrace her" next time she saw Khelif.

ETA: she also apologised for not winning, I think to her country and late Father? Just wish I could give her a bit of a hug tbh.

Just no words for how sad this makes me. She is the victim of abuse apologising for being abused, we've all seen this before haven't we?

Absolutely none of this ^ is me victim blaming her at all in any way, I completely understand. It just makes me really fucking angry and heartsick on her behalf, and on behalf of all women who have found themselves doing similar. It is not their fault!

OP posts:
ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 03/08/2024 19:04

Just catching up. I see Scrolling's picture question is answered/all OK.

EatMoreFibre · 03/08/2024 19:04

GrumpyPanda · 03/08/2024 17:59

The IOC itself inadvertently admitted it's about a DSD!

https://x.com/iocmedia/status/1819667573698445793

Hahaha they really are muppets

halava · 03/08/2024 19:07

@Fetlocksblowininthewind Thanks for filling me in. I agree with you, it is sickening that a woman had to apologise to a man for being battered. As you said yourself, it was ever thus.

Blackcats7 · 03/08/2024 19:10

halava · 03/08/2024 18:58

What did Angela apologise for please?

Her opponent is a male. Who can tell if his backstory is true or not. Algeria is not exactly a society of open unbiased media and communication I'd say. The hierarchy of men in Islam is something to be remembered also.

I believe she apologised for not shaking hands after the fight.
I think she must be under huge pressure and feel very concerned by the criticism some have made of her. Another poster also wrote the right wing politicos are using her as a sort of mascot which she may not want at all.
The whole thing must be a nightmare for her.
Although this is not a trans issue directly clearly trans activists are very invested in males being able to compete in women’s sports and from hearing how other women who have crossed them have received threats of being cancelled, rape and even death who would want to be in this position?

Mumteedum · 03/08/2024 19:37

californiaisdreaming · 03/08/2024 16:28

And either way, even if they'd lost 100% of their fights against women it does not make them female.

A lack of Y chromosomes is what does that.

Being bad at a particular sport should not be what makes someone eligible to fight in the women's category.

This is what gets me and it's awful all round.

They're male. Brought up as female. Legally female, but male in their chromosomes and in their physique, regardless of genital defects.

So they're neither so good that they would beat every woman they fight in which case likely wouldn't win against men. So what are they? A gold medal winning olympian who is likely am averagely good male athlete?

What a mess.

WickedSerious · 03/08/2024 20:17

SonicTheHodgeheg · 03/08/2024 16:00

Internet says that hijab is optional
in Algeria

Same as your sex then.

Seems fair.

WickedSerious · 03/08/2024 20:18

OhDoStoppit · 03/08/2024 15:48

She wasn't 'cheated' she was not as good as her competitor, whether by training or luck of size.

Khelif was born a woman, has female body parts and has lost plenty more fights against women than she's won.

This propaganda of the ignorant is outrageous.

A woman being bigger than another woman means she's 'cheating'?? Talk about a bunch of snowflakes. Must we also cancel Serena Williams for being too powerful? Simone Biles because her petite size helps her in her sport?? Any woman with PCOS who has higher testosterone levels???

I absolutely agree that TRANSwomen should not be competing against women, but this is not what this was.

She was cheated,her opponent was a man.

Who continues to cheat.

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