I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

[Omlettes]

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

It’s irrelevant what the advantage or disadvantage is.

‘not having a male advantage’ is not being female. It’s just being a less than average male. That’s unfortunate. I get it. I’m probably a naturally less than average female. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles.

@sadabouti I dont think that people with CAIS are male, or would consider themselves to be male. You obviously do, and that is a difference in understanding between us. I think I would say that males are created by the response to testosterone, you apparently think that XY is male, even if the Y cannot be 'heard' by the body. I expect that we will have to agree to disagree.

In this case I'd say its pretty clear, wouldnt you?

It is defensible once you've seen what the edge cases lead to.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

We are now in hell.

It has to be XX only.

You can't disagree that they are male, or that the test picks up AIS, I assume?

They are taller than women and are overrepresented on podiums in women's events relative to their incidence in the population.
They do have an advantage, just not as big as other men do over women.

As males, they belong in competition with other males.
Women should not be pushed out of competitions to make space for males.

The vast majority of women of an age to enter sporting competitions do menstruate - but no men do. CAIS males will never have to go on the pill, or have a pregnancy scare. Or cope with the effect of the menstrual cycle on the female body.

The IOC have got it wrong. Simple. Now let's see how they get out of the mess they have created. I totally agree that all women should refuse to fight. The Italian boxer was rightly scared but SO BRAVE. Based on what I heard today, boxing is likely to be removed from future Olympics. They took out standing long jump, tug of war etc. Harmless events, literally. One day - hopefully very soon - people will say Why the hell did we allow people to hit each other? Especially XY hitting XX. IOC, sort this out NOW!!!!

@TempestTost no. What you mean is they wouldn't win. That's not the same as not being able to compete on a fair basis. I could compete on a fair basis as a super heavyweight male. I'm 6 foot 6 inches and about 22 stone. I'd lose though on the first punch because I'm 43, fat, slow and weak. Wouldn't mean that the bout was unfair though would it. What isn't fair is what is being done to the legitimate female competitors who have had the competition ruined by the sort of ill thought thru tosh that ad some males with ambiguous genitals wrongly consider themselves women, that they shouldn't have to compete with other males, but should be allowed as a kindness to compete with true woman XX, it seems without the true consent of those true XX women. It's misogynistic in my view.

Surely the first duty of a sport’s governing bodyisto keep competitors safe. So in men’s boxing heavyweights don’t fightflyweights.

The IOC does not seem to have given any thought to Carini’s safety.They have failed in their duty.

@omlettes - I dont think the person in the picture has CAIS. My point was that there are a number of DSDs - many of which lead to a response to testosterone at puberty, and should exclude those people from women's sports.

Some DSDs, including CAIS, don't produce a physiological response to testosterone and therefore I dont think that it's obvious that these women should necessarily be excluded from competitive sport.

It's a complex issue - and I think that there are more informed discussions to be had about this, in more senitive settings, so will bow out

Apparently Khelif was born female and has XY chromosomes but has higher levels of testosterone ? Is this true, I’ve seen lots of different stories on them.

@similarminimer what people believe is irrelevant. Some people believe the earth is flat. Some people believe in God. Science is science. We are a species divided by chromosomal sex differences. If you have XY chromosomes, you are and will always be male. The intersex conditions we are talking about are male conditions, not female conditions. You can leave ideas of hermaphroditism to the ancient Greeks. Gender is a construct. Sex is real, observable and immutable.

Sport should reflect reality.

They're not female.
They're male. The DSD doesn't make them female, the fact that they have it proves that they are male. Female embryos are not affected by AIS.

How they think about themselves is irrelevant in this context - sport - is irrelevant. Sex is what matters in sport.

Hermaphroditism? FFS

Do they have XX or XY chromosomes ?

@similarminimer

It's a complex issue - and I think that there are more informed discussions to be had about this, in more senitive settings, so will bow out

I get your trying to be kind and sensitive. I really do. But none of this is complex. And we are where we are because people have tried to make it complex.

I like to think about it like this… Women’s sport category was created to enable those of the female sex to compete. That was it. It’s whole purpose. Not women + those with male intersex conditions + men who want to be transwomen. It’s not the ‘not competitive in the men’s’ category. It is the category for 50% of the humans on this planet who are born with a biological sex of female.

And that’s it for me. It is very plain and very simple.

Exactly, they are male. Just admit it.

No.

For a start, sex is fixed from conception, not birth.
Khelif has XY chromosomes which means he is male. That's what he has always been, though he probably has a DSD. We don't know for sure, or which one.

His testosterone levels were not tested by the IBA who did the sex-testing that revealed he was XY.

@sadobouti - this isn't some 'gotcha'. There are people with genetic conditions leading to infertility and emotional distress potentially reading this. Can you show some respect?

I don't see your point, clearly he doesn't have CAIS.

I completely agree that they are male.

I can’t seem to find where the information is that says they have XY chromosomes ?

I’ve seen multiple sources say they were born female with XX chromosomes though so I’m genuinely confused.

How about you show some respect for the women and girls whose rights to fair and safe competition you are not even considering.

Women's sports are not a consolation prize for male athletes with medical conditions. Women's sports are for women to excel in.

@similarminimer you are swerving the point with an ad hominem attack because you know the answer and don't want to say it. Males have XY chromosomes. Women have XX chromosomes. Men shouldn't be boxing with women because it's unsporting. True or untrue?

No, not at all.

Would you think it was fair to put a guy in a wheelchair in the mend 1000m?

No one with CAIS could compete in elite male sport. In a boxing match it would be as unfair and dangerous as what we just saw.

How many times, you cannot be born female and have XY chromosomes. FFS.

@sadabouti - i would say that males have the SRY gene on the Y chromosome and the receptors to respond to the androgens that are created in response to that.