I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

[Omlettes]

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

Clearly he is a man, and shouldnt need the tit grab to confirm it.
Any suggestion otherwise for any reason, is a big fat stinking manipulative lie.

Whilst not wishing to derail onto another subject I think women are already very upset about the scourge of MVAWG this week. This is yet another visceral example.

I agree. I think if they take to it, boxing can teach boys great lessons about personal responsibility and self-control.
Personally I hate it because I can't bear to see someone getting hurt!

Men are also appalled, not just women - it's madness!

Your chromosomes don't change. If you are XY now, you were XY at birth. It is possible that there were 'genital abnormalities' at birth, which if observed in a UK health setting would have led to further testing. In the early 20th century similar DSD babies would have been raised as girls - and any genital surgery would have been to give a more 'female' appearance: mainly because this surgery was less invasive.

It beyond madness now. In a world increasingly dominated by male violence on women and girls - it’s pretty much a fucking pandemic; they think it’s appropriate to make it an Olympic sport!

Are they fucking kidding!!! They are just taking piss now. I have no idea why we are standing for this. All women should refuse to race or run or swim or box against these people until they are removed.

I encourage both sexes to write to the IOC, because being appalled without telling them gets nothing sorted
support.olympics.com/hc/en-gb/requests/new

Sex runs the gamut...

It really, really, doesn't!

What about people with complete androgen insensitivity? That lack the receptors to procees testosterone? Whatever their levels of testosterone they will not go theough male puberty. They are XY chromosomally, with a blind-ending vagina BUT as I understand it 'sportingly' and externally phenotypically female, although typically tall. Should they be excluded from female sport?

People with partial androgen insensitivity - thought to be female at birth, who go through male puberty, to a greater or lesser extent, like I understand Semenya, or perhaps these boxers, clearly have a male advantage. But the chromosomal test doesnt help with CAIS.

It's a real difficulty, in part because the major sporting bodies for years have been trying to fudge what is going on.

And news media as well, many have deliberately given false information to the public. For example, calling Semenya a "woman with naturally high testosterone." That's frankly just a lie, but it's based on the idea that being a woman is something you identify into being.

Now what you find is that a lot of people, including writers in the media, are actually quite confused about the science. And then some media sources still are deliberately trying to obscure what is going on.

Add to that, the IOC has banned media from talking about it, so there are potential implications for news sources who don't toe the line, like losing access to press passes etc.

What we've had to end up doing is looking carefully a what is reported and reading between the lines. For example, Semenya was told he could compete as a female if he reduced testosterone levels. That rule would only apply to someone with a specific DSD, so we can tell pretty clearly what kind of DSD is involved.

It's similar with these competitors in boxing. We know they were tested and had XY chromosomes, and were disqualified. So we know that means they have a DSD of a certain type. The IOC claim that they are women because their passports say "F" is pretty fucking irrelevant.

Really? This is madness

I thought there had been a statement that this wouldn’t happen but if they just allow passports I don’t get it

I saw that in the bbc report but thought it was him attempting to get a handshake out of her (which she was obviously not prepared to do, and good on her).

The cheek swab does pick up CAIS athletes.
They are male. They have advantages over women:

Taller on average than women. (Height is an advantage in many sports .)
No periods so can train every day the same and not at increased risk of soft tissue injury due to the secretion of the hormone relaxin at a certain part of the menstrual cycle.

Watch it again in slow mo

Yes they should. Because they aren’t female. It’s unlucky. The same way I was born as a short woman and not a female Ussain Bolt.

Life is tough.

@Snowypeaks - I disagree with you - you are extending the arguement beyond the advantages of male puberty - the effect of the testosterone on muscle and bome mass, lung and heart etc.

. Arguing that not having periods means you shouldn't compete in female sports would presumably exclude a lot of female athletes with low BMI whomdon't menstruate

This was on Twix, it's from March 23, this is not a woman.

@inlaw - i understand that picking XY as your line in the sand is appealingly simple, but I don't think that classifying people with CAIS as having biological male advantage is defensible,

Thanks, that couldnt be more clear.
You should post this on every thread on the subject if you havent already.
Especially in response to those who are bleating about 'intersex'

Sex does not "run the gamut", that is just complete nonsense.

But they are still male aren't they. They can can compete in the male category. They don't want to do that though because they would lose, as they are not really Olympic level athletes without leverage their maleness in the female division. In boxing, of all sports, with its understanding of weight divisions, it is mental that the IOC can't see this.

Have done

I think the jury is out as to what extent it is an advantage in sport.

But sport is an area that does need a fairly straightforward, hard line.

It doesn't follow that we would have to use the same line in all other parts of life with those with CAIS if it was the line in elite sport.

My heart hurt for her, the years of blood sweat and tears she has poured into her sport. To be an Olympian is a dream I’m sure many athletes share. I am just so disgusted by the IOC. I cannot put into words how much rage I feel at the fuckers. Even if they change the rules they can never give this moment back to her, she earned this and they stole it.

CAIS individuals wouldn't be able to compete against males on a fair basis.