I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

[Omlettes]

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

@Snowypeaks PAIS is a totally different condition to 46XY, 5-ARD.
Men with CS's DSD can make full use of testosterone at puberty.

Yes i know but...
Both ARD and PAIS are condtions in which children are born with ambiguous genitalia but go through male puberty (in ARD the absence of a more potent metabolite of testosterone, DHT, prevents the development of external male genitalia before birth).

In CAIS, the body completely lacks the receptors to respond to testosterone / so no male pubertal advantage.

I know what those DSDs are. I don't know why you are lumping them together. What's your point?

And why are you focusing on genitals? It's both othering and irrelevant.

As I mentioned before, there are advantages other than pubertal advantage that CAIS males have over women. Height, no menstrual cycle.

Those advantages derive from their maleness.
Women's sports were created to exclude male advantage.
CAIS males are male, with male advantage, so should not be in it.
Why should they take women's places in women's events?

So i dont think that people with CAIS are males with male advantage. And you do. So we wont agree. I am not sure how we breach that.

And I think it is grossly unfair of you to say that i am focussing on genitals and othering. Is that REALLY what you take from my posts on this thread or are you just trying to get in a low blow? I guess we won't agree on that either.

It's not a matter of opinion. AIS does not affect female embryos, only male.
Anyone with CAIS is male.

They are taller than women because they are male.
They don't have periods because they are male.

Why should women competitors make space for males with male advantage, albeit reduced, just because this particular group of males have a feminised phenotype?

Why does women's and girls' right to fair sport in their own category not matter to you? Have you even thought about the effect on them?

This is slightly edited but Robert Winston does know something about this topic so he said on Question time some time ago '"I will say this categorically - that you cannot change your sex, your sex actually is there in every single cell in the body you have a chromosomal sex" He did say he thought they would edit him out.

IIRC Julia Bradbury or someone presenting it piped up to inform him that people disagreed with him. Yes, because they're idiots.

Yes, they are male.

I think many people feel that CAIS is an instance where there ought to be more flexibility how we treat it practically, day to day. Because in their real experience, they are not only raised as girls from childhood to puberty, they remain women to all appearances later in life, and experience the world without the influence of male hormones on their bodies and brains.

It would seem absurd to make someone like this use a male change room, for example. Or to insist they change to a "male" name and pronouns and that kind of thing. They'd likely be mistaken for women even if they wanted to.

On the other hand, in medical care, obviously doctors are going to have to treat them as males with a disorder.

So the question is, where does sports fall. It seems to come down mainly to the question of whether there is a sex based advantage over female people.

😂

Yeah I've seen you do it a lot on others threads too.

Thomas Bach head of the IOC is doubling down.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13699779/olympic-chiefs-boxer-female-rival-angela-carini-imane-khelif.html

such a sensible response! i completely agree

Well, we are talking about sport, aren't we? And CAIS males do have sex-based advantages over women even though they have not been through puberty.

This is why they are overrepresented on podiums in women's sports.

Males with CAIS have skeletal advantages and never have to worry about monthly variations in oestrogen or progesterone and never have to manage their training around their non-existent periods or manage their non-existent periods around their training.

They absolutely have male advantage.

IIRC Julia Bradbury or someone presenting it piped up to inform him that people disagreed with him. Yes, because they're idiots.

Fiona Bruce it was, I think. Julia Bradbury comes across as fairly reasonable to me.

Astonishing. That's just not true.
Not arbitrarily disqualified without due process, either. Sex eligibility rules were applied.
"Everyone has the right to practice sport without discrimination except women ".

Yes isnt it just astonishing.
Its just a continum of corruption after corruption fom the IOC.
God I'd love to see the money trail behind this!
""Everyone has the right to practice sport without discrimination except women ".
Thats what jumped out at me and bit me in the face.
What a snake he is.

It shouldn't be a sport, full stop. Calling a display of ritualised violence a sport is obscene. If you want to watch a contest of skill, strength or agility there are plenty of other sports available.

@ChildlessCatLadiesRuleOK you’re missing the point. No matter what the sport is women shouldn’t be discriminated against. Your opinion of the sport is irrelevant.

Good to see Reduxx getting credited in the article, even though it's quite low down.

Equality in the punching-other-people department is not a valuable goal.

Equality in the punching-other-people department is not a valuable goal.

Yes it is, if women choose to box, then it definitely is. The fact you wouldn't choose to box is utterly irrelevant. Feminism is for all women, including ones who do things you disapprove of.

Unbelievable, yet more doubling down, the disengeniousness and obvious lack of understanding from the head of World Boxing.
"Van Der Vorst left the eventful day disappointed in the wild conclusions and speculation thrown across social media about both fighters.
"I have not seen one single test that is proving that (the boxers are) transgender," Van Der Vorst said. "🙄

www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-02/paris-olympics-boxer-quits-mid-fight-amidst-gender-arguments/104173584

I just admit I originally though she was transgender and therefore born male. I was outraged she was allowed to compete.

It seems from more recent reports this isn't the case and is intersex, which complicates things even further.

Hmm, while I’ll happily be labelled a TERF, I’m a bit disappointed by some of the commentary on this. This isn’t a case of a transwoman inserting themselves into women’s sport. This is an individual with a complicated intersex condition. The two scenarios are very different and it’s
not correct to argue that this is all part of the “gender lunacy”. People have co-opted the story for their own agendas.

Thank you! This is how I'm feeling now!! To misquote Mike Tyson:"everyone can be nuanced till someone gets punched in the face". Posie's clean, if very frank , statements about AHF, and not needing to be a vet to know a dog, are going to get a lot more traction. In my anger I'm hoping this will be the Rubicon for a lot of lingering "be kind/both sides". This can not continue