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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 28/07/2024 07:31

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
107
MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 09:55

@Nomnomnew

no one in authority on this is saying they passed a chromosome test or that they don’t have XY chromosomes. The IOC doesn’t care if they do. It says they’re female because they have female on their passports. The IOC’s own policy is to prioritise inclusion and that there’s ’no presumption’ of advantage for these athletes, even if they are male. If you were right that they are truly women, why isn’t the IOC or someone else (the athletes’ teams for example) just proving it? It’s not hard to do.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected.

Cailin66 · 03/08/2024 09:56

SabrinaThwaite · 03/08/2024 09:09

Bit late, but this is just false.

The IBA didn’t reinstate a Russian boxer after Khelif’s 2023 disqualification. It reinstated a Thai boxer, Janjaem Suwannapheng.

It’s so easy to check this, but the ‘Russian corruption’ defence does seem to be the new TRA angle..

Also interesting to claim that IBA corruption stems from being lead by a Russian (previously a Chinese) - having conveniently forgotten that the ‘Chinese’ president was from Chinese Taipei - remind me again, where does Lin Yu-ting represent?

Hi Sabrina, could you help me on this bit please

A poster called Dogface said the IBA banned Khelif over a Russian boxer, who was reinstated, and you say it was a Thai boxer, here we have on twitter a person called YEV saying it was over a Russian boxer

yev on X: "Do you know where the allegations that Algerian boxer Iman Khelif was trans started? Surprise, it was Russia. Let me explain in a short thread. 1/8 https://t.co/dsq2VQWXvO" / X (twitter.com)

This post on twitter:

Lin's medal was revoked for failing a "sex test," and Khelif faced similar accusations after beating a Russian opponent. See not before, they were banned after winning.

How can I disprove that, have you a link to prove it was not the case. Thanks in advance for the confirmation.

Cailin66 · 03/08/2024 09:58

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 09:17

Do people want a new thread when this one fills up?

yes please.

ChateauMargaux · 03/08/2024 09:59

I have been thrown off a facebook group that posts positive things about women for sharing facts, no speculation, about the boxers, the footballers and the processes.

I cannot believe the amount of misinformation being shared.

CaveMum · 03/08/2024 10:00

alittleprivacy · 03/08/2024 09:20

No. Swyer Syndrome is co-morbid with osteopenia with an enormous risk of osteoporosis. No-one with that condition is making it as on Olympic level boxer.

Thanks for this, I was wondering what the likelihood of someone with a pretty severe genetic condition making the grade as an Olympic athlete was. It totally rebuffs the suggestion that someone with Swyer Syndrome could be competitive.

Zeugma · 03/08/2024 10:04

Carole Hooven, Cathy Devine and Matty Watkins (aka The Peak Lady) are doing womanful work setting matters straight on X at the moment. But good grief, the relentless tide of utter bilge that’s being spouted is mind-blowing.

But Russia!

But Khelif's had a baby! TWO babies!!

BUT SWYER'S SYNDROME!!!

How did all of humankind operate perfectly happily for millennia knowing and recognising that there were two sexes, yet suddenly, within, the last few years, we're apparently unable to make this simple distinction any more?

I'm hoping that a lot of the names I'm seeing on here for the first time asking for clarification is a sign of people asking for proper information in good faith (the usual suspects are, of course, a given).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 10:06

here we have on twitter a person called YEV saying it was over a Russian boxer

Ask him the name of the Russian boxer. If he can't tell you, it's misinformation. The random Twitter guy appears to be Ukrainian, while we're throwing accusations of bias around, don't people think there might be some there?

The poster called Dogface was repeating the same unattributed information from Reddit. Without the name of the "Russian boxer" it's likely to be misinformation. Don't trust random posts on Reddit or Twitter without reliable corroboration.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 10:06

ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 09:26

Someone already answered this same question yesterday. The answer is ‘No’. But for the details see their post.

Actually, I did t touch on brain changes from ross sex hormknes rather than PBs (and I don't think anyone else did). It's a good follow up question.

The answer, however, is 'Fuck knows'.

The numbers of people taking them within the 'normal puberty window' is small (and mostly very recent). Taking them after the normal window would have different effects. There have been, as far as I know, no specific studies on this - and if there were you'd have to disentangle the effect from the of PBs, which themselves have barely any decent neurological research.

Havig said that, .my guess would be no. The hormone changes in puberty are complex cascades of changing levels of all sorts of different hormones in a specific sequence at exactly the right point in the devlopmental window. Artificial cross sex hormones are 1 or 2 hormones given at a set, steady dose - or sometimes with a bit of a ramping up period - within a few years of the correct point.

It seems unlikely they would do the same.job, and to the same standard.

Nomnomnew · 03/08/2024 10:06

MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 09:55

@Nomnomnew

no one in authority on this is saying they passed a chromosome test or that they don’t have XY chromosomes. The IOC doesn’t care if they do. It says they’re female because they have female on their passports. The IOC’s own policy is to prioritise inclusion and that there’s ’no presumption’ of advantage for these athletes, even if they are male. If you were right that they are truly women, why isn’t the IOC or someone else (the athletes’ teams for example) just proving it? It’s not hard to do.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected.

Read the IOC’s own statement.
https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

it says:
‘As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.’

The reason the IBA can’t disclose the tests is medical confidentiality. The athletes could. They are choosing not to. They are choosing to rely on the medical confidentiality. If they are female, why would they do that?

I am not sure what you mean by they have been ‘thoroughly dissected’. Personally I think it’s clear enough from information in the public domain that they are male with a DSD. The IOC just doesn’t give a shit.

Joint Paris 2024 Boxing Unit/IOC Statement

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 10:08

Here is a link to Thread 2 for those who wish to continue the discussion...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion. Thread 1 can be found here... [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-t...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes

OP posts:
Floisme · 03/08/2024 10:09

MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 09:55

@Nomnomnew

no one in authority on this is saying they passed a chromosome test or that they don’t have XY chromosomes. The IOC doesn’t care if they do. It says they’re female because they have female on their passports. The IOC’s own policy is to prioritise inclusion and that there’s ’no presumption’ of advantage for these athletes, even if they are male. If you were right that they are truly women, why isn’t the IOC or someone else (the athletes’ teams for example) just proving it? It’s not hard to do.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so?

You didn't address the question to me but this is what the IOC have stated:
'As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.'
IOC 01/08/24
Full statement here:
olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

StealthSpinach · 03/08/2024 10:13

Very interesting headline in the TWAW Courier Mail for the article about the IBA awarding money to Carini…

IBA has awarded gold-medal style bonus to Italy’s Angela Carini after being bashed by Imane Khelif

I do wonder if the scales have fallen and some journalists are seizing the opportunity to write clearly and factually?

https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/olympics/iba-has-awarded-goldmedal-style-bonus-to-italys-angela-carini-after-being-bashed-by-imane-khelif/news-story/ad0cb37c0dbad96c645f96d334cd7895

ChaChaChooey · 03/08/2024 10:15

MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 09:55

@Nomnomnew

no one in authority on this is saying they passed a chromosome test or that they don’t have XY chromosomes. The IOC doesn’t care if they do. It says they’re female because they have female on their passports. The IOC’s own policy is to prioritise inclusion and that there’s ’no presumption’ of advantage for these athletes, even if they are male. If you were right that they are truly women, why isn’t the IOC or someone else (the athletes’ teams for example) just proving it? It’s not hard to do.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected.

There is no such thing as private medical information in high level sports events. They have to piss in cups with an inspector watching them!

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 10:16

MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 09:55

@Nomnomnew

no one in authority on this is saying they passed a chromosome test or that they don’t have XY chromosomes. The IOC doesn’t care if they do. It says they’re female because they have female on their passports. The IOC’s own policy is to prioritise inclusion and that there’s ’no presumption’ of advantage for these athletes, even if they are male. If you were right that they are truly women, why isn’t the IOC or someone else (the athletes’ teams for example) just proving it? It’s not hard to do.

Is the IOC actually saying the only reason they're female is because their passport says so? And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to? That's their private medical information you're bandying about. They've already been thoroughly dissected.

Mark Adams stated, more than once, that the IOC are happy for these male athletes to compete because they have female in their passports and because they competed before.

We know that having female in your passport does not mean you are a female person. It could be changed in some countries because a male wants to change it. Or, what is more likely with this athletes, they were incorrectly registered as female at birth because various reasons that are likely to be that they are males with DSDs.

And the argument that they competed before is a weak one. Yes. They competed under IOC regulations before because the IOC ignored the IBA regulations on protecting the female category because they have excluded the IBA from organising the event this year. For an example to clarify this, If they excluded the WA the way they excluded the IBA, it would also mean that athletics would also be run under the IOC inclusive regulations.

Remember, the IOC pushed the responsibly for policies regarding male inclusion on to the international federations after the Tokyo Olympics. Budgett even stated in the announcement that the IOC prioritised inclusion above fairness. (And even acknowledged the IOC understood it was unfair, to my recollection).

However, this act of pushing responsibility down a level leaves athletes then at risk with this loophole that has now been exposed. Because the IOC created this risk back in the late 90s with policy changes and will not take leadership to fix this issue. Because they prioritise inclusion - of male people in female sports categories.

Floisme · 03/08/2024 10:19

Ah sorry, Nomnomnew had already answered MessinaBloom but I'd missed the post.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 10:19

Why should they prove it?

If you were a woman subject to weeks of intense, unpleasant and deeply personal speculation that could throw your entire past reputation, all your previous wins, your current Olympic performance and your future career into the bin - and you could end it with a 2-second non invasive test - wouldn't you want to?

Cailin66 · 03/08/2024 10:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 10:06

here we have on twitter a person called YEV saying it was over a Russian boxer

Ask him the name of the Russian boxer. If he can't tell you, it's misinformation. The random Twitter guy appears to be Ukrainian, while we're throwing accusations of bias around, don't people think there might be some there?

The poster called Dogface was repeating the same unattributed information from Reddit. Without the name of the "Russian boxer" it's likely to be misinformation. Don't trust random posts on Reddit or Twitter without reliable corroboration.

Ask who? The person on Twitter of the poster on here? I
(Thanks for replying )

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 10:22

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

This is what's behind the frequent TRA claim of 'We all start out female'.

In reality, we all start with an embryonic body plan to be either and a genetic code to be one or the other.

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 10:24

Just bumping this. New thread here...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?reply=137263873

Thread 2: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes” | Mumsnet

A second thread for those who wish to continue the discussion. Thread 1 can be found here... [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-t...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133749-thread-2-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?reply=137263873

OP posts:
ChaChaChooey · 03/08/2024 10:25

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 10:19

Why should they prove it?

If you were a woman subject to weeks of intense, unpleasant and deeply personal speculation that could throw your entire past reputation, all your previous wins, your current Olympic performance and your future career into the bin - and you could end it with a 2-second non invasive test - wouldn't you want to?

Edited

YES!

And in future all sex tests should take place at the beginning of an athlete’s career, well before the eyes of the world are on them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 10:28

Ask who? The person on Twitter of the poster on here? I
(Thanks for replying )

Either.

Anna Slatz posted a rebuttal to this, which I shared here last night. It's equally just more information on Twitter, but I haven't seen any credible evidence proving her wrong, just that weird Reddit screenshot and assorted pompous men proclaiming the "truth". She at least gives the name of the boxers Khelif and Lin allegedly fought before they were disqualified.

So I conclude there is deliberate disinformation being spread. It's not solely Russia that does this.

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/08/2024 10:29

And why should they "just prove it" because you'd like them to?

Because they're punching women in the head despite accepting the IBAs decision to disqualify them last year for not being female...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 10:31

Sorry, it was @Helleofabore who shared the Anna Slatz post on this thread, I shared it on another one, and I think the same Dog person was also posting on that one. So many threads!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/08/2024 10:33

People seem to be taking the Reddit originating claim about the "Russian boxers" without question.

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