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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 28/07/2024 07:31

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

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107
ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2024 23:53

I have more trust and faith in them than what a children's author or a non-expert Maya Forstarter or ex comdey-writer (who I hear is in a little spot of hot soup) thinks.

More than you have in the IBA? Why have 'trust and faith' in the IOC than the sport's own experts? But actually you don't need 'faith' in the IBA - they're working on the basis of evidence.

lonelywater · 02/08/2024 23:57

ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2024 23:53

I have more trust and faith in them than what a children's author or a non-expert Maya Forstarter or ex comdey-writer (who I hear is in a little spot of hot soup) thinks.

More than you have in the IBA? Why have 'trust and faith' in the IOC than the sport's own experts? But actually you don't need 'faith' in the IBA - they're working on the basis of evidence.

and unless I have it wrong, it seems the IOC's test is whatever it says on your passport. tell me that's incorrect?

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 00:04

lonelywater · 02/08/2024 23:57

and unless I have it wrong, it seems the IOC's test is whatever it says on your passport. tell me that's incorrect?

Yes, that’s correct. It’s a low bar to have faith in the ability of a group of adults to be able to read the alphabet and recognise the letter F.

The cast of Sesame Street could run boxing with that bar.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 00:36

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 02/08/2024 16:37

Excellent, thank you.

Separate to this issue (I know it's not relevant to trans) but does that mean that little boys (XY) who are being transitioned in primary school cannot go through a type of artificial female puberty (in the appropriate age range) with the help of hormones and the suppression of male puberty?

I think I naively assumed they'd found a way to vaguely approximate some external aspects of puberty in the opposite sex albeit in an experimental, damaging way (with no favourable long term data, feeding into the beginning of lawsuits from detransitioners whose health has been irreversibly ruined).

I appreciate they're never going to grow female sex organs or menstruate, I was thinking more along the lines of 'aesthetic' elements like breasts, hips, suppressing muscle mass and skeletal growth etc. As I type that I realise how stupid it sounds.

This is all very enlightening thank you.

Edited

Some external aspects, yes. Anything approaching actual puberty of the other sex, no.

Puberty blockers stop any puberty happening, they don't switch one puberty for another. But if given early enough they would, for example, stop the male facial bone changes that normally happen during puberty. So a boy would retain a 'boyish' face that is closer to a female one than that of an adult man.

Cross sex hormones (in either direction) will create a limited approximation of some secondary sex characteristics.

For example oestrogen changes fat deposits, making face and hips appear softer and rounder - but doesn't change underlying bone structure that has already grown. It also causes development of apparent breasts, but without full female internal tissue in the way of milk ducts etc. It does not grow any sort of cervix, ovaries, uterus etc. whatever David Lammy thinks.

Testosterone thickens vocal cords and deepens the voice, causes beard growth (usually somewhat sparse), increases muscle growth and can cause some additional bone growth (but again with limitations). It will enlarge a clitoris to look maybe a bit penisy but not grow a true penis or anything in the way of testes. And in neither case is it really a 'puberty' in any meaningful sense.

is it possible that they could possess functional ovaries or ovaries and testes that release hormones in the range to trigger female puberty?

There is a theoretical possibility that someone with a mosaic condition (essentially, cells from 2 different embryos get mixed up to create 1 baby) could have mainly XY cells, but have enough XX ones in the right place to produce ovaries. Exceptionally unlikely though - and the chances of them being functional are even smaller. Mixed up developmental signals from the rest of the body would cause havoc with their formation and function.

For someone with any of the normal XY DSDs, no. No functional ovaries. And testes are incapable of releasing the necessary types and levels of hormones for female puberty.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 03/08/2024 00:57

Thank you so much for the thorough explanation 🙂

MrsTerryPratchett · 03/08/2024 00:57

There is a theoretical possibility that someone with a mosaic condition (essentially, cells from 2 different embryos get mixed up to create 1 baby) could have mainly XY cells, but have enough XX ones in the right place to produce ovaries. Exceptionally unlikely though - and the chances of them being functional are even smaller. Mixed up developmental signals from the rest of the body would cause havoc with their formation and function.

Isn't that chimerism? Which is so interesting and incredibly rare. One of the reasons DNA tests cannot be stated to be 100% accurate. Of course we don't actually know how many people are chimeras because people wouldn't necessarily know.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 01:13

It is chimerism, yes - a weird and wonderful aspect of biology. Emphasis on the weird.

Some types really aren't rare at all - any woman who has been pregnant will have some stray cells floating around. But they seem to have very little effect except on the immune system. Quite different from the developmental type.

Christinapple · 03/08/2024 01:27

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/08/2024 23:39

I'm not an expert

I didn't ask for your credentials, I asked for your beliefs. Yes, or no.

Slippery cobblers isn't that. Just yes or no for your own beliefs.

Yes I believe Imane should be permitted to compete.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 03/08/2024 01:28

That also wasn't the question.

lcakethereforeIam · 03/08/2024 01:28

Yes he should. If he's good enough to fight other men.

Bookery · 03/08/2024 01:46

alittleprivacy · 01/08/2024 21:49

You know what else is going to happen here? Trump will almost definitely highlight what happened here. Only yesterday he was reported as saying he plans to outright ban men in women's sport.

And I'm going to be very honest. If I was American, I genuinely think that this could be the moment where I would decide to hold my nose in November and go vote for him. I do not want another single woman to ever go through what Carini has suffered today. So I don't doubt that there is a significant number of actual Americans who will be feeling the same.

Trump is a rapist (confirmed by Lewis A. Kaplan, the judge who presided over the lawsuit filed by E. Jean Carroll, that Trump had "raped" Carroll "according to the common definition of the word"), so his comments on planning to keep men out of women's sports to stop male encroachment on female rights are seen as opportunistic and insincere by US voters (mostly women but no doubt some men as well), apart from staunch Trump supporters and those who do not care much about sexual violence against women in general.

He brought that mistrust upon himself, and his history of blatant misogyny ("grab 'em by the pussy") only exacerbates it. His persistent tendency to say whatever that crosses his mind that he believes will make headlines does not help, either.

KielderWater · 03/08/2024 02:14

I have no doubt Trump doesn’t care about women, but he is not so much of a fool to miss the huge political opportunity left open to him by the Democratic Party forcing women and girls to accept men in their changing rooms, resulting in girls being raped, and in women’s sport.

Bookery · 03/08/2024 02:36

KielderWater · 03/08/2024 02:14

I have no doubt Trump doesn’t care about women, but he is not so much of a fool to miss the huge political opportunity left open to him by the Democratic Party forcing women and girls to accept men in their changing rooms, resulting in girls being raped, and in women’s sport.

Trump may try to exploit what he might see as an opportunity, but large swathes of Independent voters that Trump must secure to win are distrustful of his comments on female rights to sex-segregated sports (and other sex-segregated spaces) due to his history of being accused of sexual misconduct at least 26 times.

There are signs that the White House and Democrats in the US House & Senate are becoming more aware that in some cases sex matters and lines need to be drawn even if that means certain activists try to claim how the Dems are just as "transphobic" as the Republicans (e.g. the recent White House opposition to surgeries for gender-questioning minors, which caused predictable uproar in groups that push for transgender rights without equally respecting female rights), so the narrative does seem to be shifting.

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 02:47

ErrolTheDragon · 02/08/2024 23:53

I have more trust and faith in them than what a children's author or a non-expert Maya Forstarter or ex comdey-writer (who I hear is in a little spot of hot soup) thinks.

More than you have in the IBA? Why have 'trust and faith' in the IOC than the sport's own experts? But actually you don't need 'faith' in the IBA - they're working on the basis of evidence.

The IBA is a a massively corrupt organisation currently lead by a Russian (previously a Chinese) with ties to Putin and the Russian government, they are hardly the bastions of all things good and proper that we should aspire to respecting on any level. So much so that the 2023 amateur boxing championships that they arranged (where Russian and Belarusian athletes were free to compete without restriction or testing) was boycott by the USA. Then the UK. Then Poland, Ireland, Sweden, Czechia, Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands...
This, amongst many other examples of financial irregularities and dodgy testing methods is why they are no longer recognised by any of the major world boxing organisations, the BBBC or the Olympic committee.
Also, does anyone remember the massive backlash at the Tokyo Olympics, when this Algerian boxer lost to that Irish boxer in the quarter finals? Because I don't even remember it being mentioned once.
Record - 50 fights, 37 wins, 9 defeats, 4 no contests. Only 5 of those wins have come by way of stoppage.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 02:54

There is absolutely nothing to gain by the IBA to pretend that the chromosome tests on these two athletes are XY and show them to be male. What’s the point? One Algerian and one athlete from Taiwan. Hardly a political motive is there. Just nonsense to claim the IBA has somehow twisted this story.

The reason they flew under the radar and got to punch women in the face before facts were known is hardly justification for it happening then or now. I bet their opponents knew, but we know what happens when women try and raise concerns.

And just because he is mediocre, doesn’t justify it either. So some top class women can beat a mediocre man: how does that make it fair? Do you want to see women getting their heads caved in every bout before you’ll think it might be unfair?

Why are you justifying men being allowed to beat up women for sport?

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 03:01

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 02:54

There is absolutely nothing to gain by the IBA to pretend that the chromosome tests on these two athletes are XY and show them to be male. What’s the point? One Algerian and one athlete from Taiwan. Hardly a political motive is there. Just nonsense to claim the IBA has somehow twisted this story.

The reason they flew under the radar and got to punch women in the face before facts were known is hardly justification for it happening then or now. I bet their opponents knew, but we know what happens when women try and raise concerns.

And just because he is mediocre, doesn’t justify it either. So some top class women can beat a mediocre man: how does that make it fair? Do you want to see women getting their heads caved in every bout before you’ll think it might be unfair?

Why are you justifying men being allowed to beat up women for sport?

The IBA gained by getting rid of these 2 opponents and making it easier for their Russian boxers to win. The pair of them have fought in lots of contests and never been pulled up on their gender, why should the sudden implications from a corrupt, Russian governing body make any difference? They still haven't stated what test they actually failed for god's sake.
Edit. If they had a record of 37 wins, 9 losses and 35 stoppages I'd be more concerned, but 5 out of 37 doesn't seem like they are a big hitter tbh.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 03:05

Yes they have, in the news reports originally it was clear they had had chromosomal testing and found to be XY.

So these athletes are both simultaneously mediocre and not a threat because of their records but equally a threat to the success of Russian athletes?

Going to have to expand on your logic there…

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 03:14

Kremlev "claims" the 2 had XY chromosomes from a DNA test but the results were never published or checked by anyone else and Khelif said she didn't take such a test. They only disqualified Khelif after she beat the Russian boxer, which they then reinstated.. Go figure.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 03:19

The results haven’t been published due to medical confidentiality reasons. If Khelif was a victim of such a massive injustice, why didn’t he pursue the case to Cas, where the corruption of the IBA in falsifying XY results would have come to light in a jiffy?

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 03:38

Yeah, because the Russians are always keen to share such information 😆 I know she did appeal but got nowhere with it. I'm not going to say I know anything about the reasons as I haven't researched them. But I'd imagine the answer is "because Russia" at a guess.
Why is this one tournament the only time her gender been questioned in many competitions?
Honestly, are you seriously accepting the findings of a body that is so corrupt it has been shunned by every other boxing body in the world that actually matters?
Why was she suddenly tested AFTER defeating the Russian boxer and booted out of the contest? Why not test her before the tournament just to make sure, she does look a bit "blokeish" after all. But we won't subject any of our fighters to any sort of testing, that might impact our chances of winning a contest we organised.

Justme56 · 03/08/2024 03:42

Just catching up. Can you clarify the name of the Russian boxer that Khelif fought against.

Justme56 · 03/08/2024 04:12

The only reason I ask is that this information is circulating online. Maybe someone knows different.

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 04:29

Justme56 · 03/08/2024 03:42

Just catching up. Can you clarify the name of the Russian boxer that Khelif fought against.

This is a new pivot to discredit the IBA.

The team from redux posted this in answer:

https://x.com/slatzism/status/1819427537740558848?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

9. "The IBA only disqualified L & K because they beat Russian boxers at the 2023 championships!"

No they did not. I started seeing this weird, completely false claim circulating over the last 24 hours.

Khelif beat Thailand's Janjaem Suwannapheng and was set to compete against China's Yang Liu for gold in the Welterweight category.

Lin beat Bulgaria's Svetlana Kamenova Staneva for bronze in the Featherweight category.

They were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers in either one of their categories, and only one Russian boxer won a gold medal in the entire championship (Anastasiia Demurchian, Light Middleweight).

India won the most gold medals (4) at the 2023 Women's Championship. China won the most medals overall (7). Kazakhstan won the second most medals overall (6). Russia only won 3 medals at the championship.

Also worth noting that another Taiwanese boxer, Huang Hsiao-wen, won gold in the Bantamweight category. So for all the Taiwanese mouthpieces claiming Lin's disqualification was just "discrimination against Taiwan"... lol no.

x.com

https://x.com/slatzism/status/1819427537740558848?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

MessinaBloom · 03/08/2024 04:34

@NotBadConsidering

There is absolutely nothing to gain by the IBA to pretend that the chromosome tests on these two athletes are XY and show them to be male. What’s the point? One Algerian and one athlete from Taiwan. Hardly a political motive is there. Just nonsense to claim the IBA has somehow twisted this story.

Because Russia never puts out propaganda, oh no 🙄 Look at all the discord the has been sowed over the past 24 hours or so, particularly online, and have another think.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 04:37

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 03:14

Kremlev "claims" the 2 had XY chromosomes from a DNA test but the results were never published or checked by anyone else and Khelif said she didn't take such a test. They only disqualified Khelif after she beat the Russian boxer, which they then reinstated.. Go figure.

https://x.com/slatzism/status/1819427537740558848?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

9. "The IBA only disqualified L & K because they beat Russian boxers at the 2023 championships!"

No they did not. I started seeing this weird, completely false claim circulating over the last 24 hours.

Khelif beat Thailand's Janjaem Suwannapheng and was set to compete against China's Yang Liu for gold in the Welterweight category.

Lin beat Bulgaria's Svetlana Kamenova Staneva for bronze in the Featherweight category.

They were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers in either one of their categories, and only one Russian boxer won a gold medal in the entire championship (Anastasiia Demurchian, Light Middleweight).

India won the most gold medals (4) at the 2023 Women's Championship. China won the most medals overall (7). Kazakhstan won the second most medals overall (6). Russia only won 3 medals at the championship.

Also worth noting that another Taiwanese boxer, Huang Hsiao-wen, won gold in the Bantamweight category. So for all the Taiwanese mouthpieces claiming Lin's disqualification was just "discrimination against Taiwan"... lol no.

x.com

https://x.com/slatzism/status/1819427537740558848?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

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