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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 28/07/2024 07:31

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

OP posts:
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107
Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 08:53

MadameMassiveSalad · 03/08/2024 08:48

I'm confused as to whether this boxer is biologically female. There are conflicting reports out there.

I feel worried about all this. I've read that she may have Swyer syndrome in which case surely she would be female ? I know she would have XY chromosomes but theres no way she could be in the men's category. I'm worried this is actually a very unpleasant witch hunt based on what genitals someone may or may not have. I don't trust the IBC due to the Russian link.

Ingenieur · 03/08/2024 08:57

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 08:53

I feel worried about all this. I've read that she may have Swyer syndrome in which case surely she would be female ? I know she would have XY chromosomes but theres no way she could be in the men's category. I'm worried this is actually a very unpleasant witch hunt based on what genitals someone may or may not have. I don't trust the IBC due to the Russian link.

Khelif definitely doesn't have Swyer syndrome, the phenotype doesn't match at all.

Nomnomnew · 03/08/2024 09:01

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 08:53

I feel worried about all this. I've read that she may have Swyer syndrome in which case surely she would be female ? I know she would have XY chromosomes but theres no way she could be in the men's category. I'm worried this is actually a very unpleasant witch hunt based on what genitals someone may or may not have. I don't trust the IBC due to the Russian link.

Well there’s lots of information on here, and other threads, twitter, the newspaper articles and the science of sport podcast, if you want to learn more and understand why it’s not swyer syndrome and they’re men.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 09:03

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 08:53

I feel worried about all this. I've read that she may have Swyer syndrome in which case surely she would be female ? I know she would have XY chromosomes but theres no way she could be in the men's category. I'm worried this is actually a very unpleasant witch hunt based on what genitals someone may or may not have. I don't trust the IBC due to the Russian link.

What was the evidence given for Swyer Syndrome?

I assume the source described the variation in the Y chromosome and various consequences of that and how it manifests.

What in that description led you to be apprehensive about these boxers manifesting Swyer Syndrome?

You might find some suitably helpful evidence and information here.

shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport

WarriorN · 03/08/2024 09:06

Swyer syndrome is mostly or completely unable to use or make testosterone.

SabrinaThwaite · 03/08/2024 09:09

DogFacedWoman · 03/08/2024 03:14

Kremlev "claims" the 2 had XY chromosomes from a DNA test but the results were never published or checked by anyone else and Khelif said she didn't take such a test. They only disqualified Khelif after she beat the Russian boxer, which they then reinstated.. Go figure.

Bit late, but this is just false.

The IBA didn’t reinstate a Russian boxer after Khelif’s 2023 disqualification. It reinstated a Thai boxer, Janjaem Suwannapheng.

It’s so easy to check this, but the ‘Russian corruption’ defence does seem to be the new TRA angle..

Also interesting to claim that IBA corruption stems from being lead by a Russian (previously a Chinese) - having conveniently forgotten that the ‘Chinese’ president was from Chinese Taipei - remind me again, where does Lin Yu-ting represent?

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 09:09

WarriorN · 03/08/2024 09:06

Swyer syndrome is mostly or completely unable to use or make testosterone.

Well this is what I thought. But a relative who I'm having a robust discussion with has said they read in the guardian that they were born with a womb. Is it possible that they have Swyers but have taken testosterone? I've read it in a few online papers. No evidence but obviously no one knows their medical details.

alittleprivacy · 03/08/2024 09:12

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 09:03

What was the evidence given for Swyer Syndrome?

I assume the source described the variation in the Y chromosome and various consequences of that and how it manifests.

What in that description led you to be apprehensive about these boxers manifesting Swyer Syndrome?

You might find some suitably helpful evidence and information here.

shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport

Edited

There is none. Someone just googled women with a y chromosome and read the section of the Wikipedia page they could see without opening the article, a screenshot of which is what was circulating on Twitter as "proof." I genuinely can't get over how utterly disgusting this all is.

Floisme · 03/08/2024 09:14

If it's all so very complicated then why won't the IOC sanction a non invasive test that would settle matters? Even now, it's not too late for them to do the right thing.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 09:15

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 09:09

Well this is what I thought. But a relative who I'm having a robust discussion with has said they read in the guardian that they were born with a womb. Is it possible that they have Swyers but have taken testosterone? I've read it in a few online papers. No evidence but obviously no one knows their medical details.

Without a link to this piece I wonder if it's futile to comment on people's speculations. Your relative can't recall what the Guardian's evidence or logic model was for such a claim?

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 09:16

Christinapple · 02/08/2024 23:17

I'm not an expert, and neither is JK Rowling or Forstarter (which I heard was confirmed by a judge recently).

As mentioned, Imane has lost to 9 women in boxing before, one of whom has spoken out in support of her. She wasn't a newcomer out of nowhere, they knew who she was and used all the info to make the decision to allow her to compete. I have more trust and faith in them than what a children's author or a non-expert Maya Forstarter or ex comdey-writer (who I hear is in a little spot of hot soup) thinks.

It was pointed out to you before that people don’t understand even the basics of competitive advantage when they have tried this approach previously. In fact, don’t you try this earlier?

This is a logical fallacy . Go back and find answers to the previous attempt.

Ingenieur · 03/08/2024 09:17

Floisme · 03/08/2024 09:14

If it's all so very complicated then why won't the IOC sanction a non invasive test that would settle matters? Even now, it's not too late for them to do the right thing.

They used to do a swab genetic test before 1999, Sharon Davies mentioned this in a recent tweet, and stated that mkre than 80% of female athletes supported retaining it.

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 09:17

Do people want a new thread when this one fills up?

OP posts:
LilyBartsHatShop · 03/08/2024 09:17

Thread might close too soon but I just want to get back to the segue into pubertal changes above.
@NoBinturongsHereMate or other knowledgeable posters, is there any published evidence about whether or not cross sex hormones, for teens who have had puberty completely blocked, bring about the brain changes that usually occur in puberty?
Cheers.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 09:18

Floisme · 03/08/2024 09:14

If it's all so very complicated then why won't the IOC sanction a non invasive test that would settle matters? Even now, it's not too late for them to do the right thing.

I had a sudden flash of a hacked-off member of CSI: Paris taking it upon themselves to nip along to the local gathering place for the IOC with a few swabs and the reagents for a 4hr turnaround time.

ETA: no idea if there is a CSI: Paris offshoot.

lcakethereforeIam · 03/08/2024 09:20

@Signalbox I think a second thread would be a good idea. Thank you.

alittleprivacy · 03/08/2024 09:20

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 09:09

Well this is what I thought. But a relative who I'm having a robust discussion with has said they read in the guardian that they were born with a womb. Is it possible that they have Swyers but have taken testosterone? I've read it in a few online papers. No evidence but obviously no one knows their medical details.

No. Swyer Syndrome is co-morbid with osteopenia with an enormous risk of osteoporosis. No-one with that condition is making it as on Olympic level boxer.

Floisme · 03/08/2024 09:21

Ingenieur · 03/08/2024 09:17

They used to do a swab genetic test before 1999, Sharon Davies mentioned this in a recent tweet, and stated that mkre than 80% of female athletes supported retaining it.

Yes, I've probably seen the same tweet: women athletes polled at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 voted 82% in favour of sex testing but the IOC went ahead and abolished it.

Hmm, is all I am going to say.

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 09:22

Grandmasswagbag · 03/08/2024 09:09

Well this is what I thought. But a relative who I'm having a robust discussion with has said they read in the guardian that they were born with a womb. Is it possible that they have Swyers but have taken testosterone? I've read it in a few online papers. No evidence but obviously no one knows their medical details.

I don’t think it should be permitted to hide your sex behind a medical condition. A condition for eligibility should be that you are 100% transparent about your sex. It’s the lack of transparency that leads to speculation and misinformation. The IOC are 100% responsible for this mess. They should be ashamed of themselves.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 03/08/2024 09:26

LilyBartsHatShop · 03/08/2024 09:17

Thread might close too soon but I just want to get back to the segue into pubertal changes above.
@NoBinturongsHereMate or other knowledgeable posters, is there any published evidence about whether or not cross sex hormones, for teens who have had puberty completely blocked, bring about the brain changes that usually occur in puberty?
Cheers.

Someone already answered this same question yesterday. The answer is ‘No’. But for the details see their post.

Signalbox · 03/08/2024 09:36

Sorry if shared before. Is Nandy in the process of peaking do we think?

"Very uncomfortable watch" says Culture secretary, Lisa Nandy, on men in women's boxing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MKFWnNBgY0

OP posts:
StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 03/08/2024 09:38

Sorry if shared before. Is Nandy in the process of peaking do we think?

No. I give it less than 6 weeks before it's nonsense as usual.

lcakethereforeIam · 03/08/2024 09:41

I believe cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable. I'm sure Nandy has lots of 'bekind' friends who'll something, something internal transphobia. She'll get over it.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2024 09:46

It wouldn’t surprise me if a load of Labour people change their tune now they’re elected. Did Nandy ever truly believe rapists should be in women’s prisons or was she too terrified to tell the truth lest it impact her or Labour’s policies election chances by pissing off their base?

Bunch of flip flopping cowards, but as long as they get there eventually I guess.

Helleofabore · 03/08/2024 09:53

Carole Hooven (hoovlet on Twitter) is on fire this week in getting out summarisations from her book and the information she has accumulated. This recent tweet covers some information that may help getting your heads around the ‘has a uterus’ misinformation that has been coming through.

It touches on the hormone AMH which is the hormone that stops the production if the uterus and fallopian tubes. It is produced in the testes of male people. And as such there are no ovaries, because the body developed testes instead.

There is are male conditions where this hormone is not produced. In Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome, male people with this still develop as ‘typical male’ developmentally.

She has numerous tweets about this issue this week. Good stuff.

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

Tweet is below:

I posted yesterday about 5-ARD, a disorder (or difference) of sex development. I don't think anything I've posted here has ever received more attention (millions of views, over 10K likes, and rising, media inquiries, which I've turned down).

First: why didn't I mention that I have a book for anyone interested in sex differences, testosterone, DSDs, etc.? Did not occur to me. Dumb, I know. But it's a great book! Go buy it! It's called T: the Story of Testosterone, the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us. a.co/d/0yhZsGB

Second: I know I could have written more concisely, but I wanted to get relevant info out there on this particular DSD, in a way that is interesting (to me) and accurate. I love all the detailed stuff, and like 10 other people do too, so that's what I included.

Third: I don't know what condition any boxers who probably shouldn't be competing in the female category have. I provided info on one condition that fits the info I do have (athletes with XY chromosomes, an apparent significant advantage in strength and power, not identifying as transgender, competing in the female category), and which is relatively common in these rare situations.

And fourth. Some people were confused about various aspects of this DSD, which is understandable, since my tweet about it was too long for most people to read carefully (or even finish), and I used language and concepts that non-scientists might not be used to. But if you're interested, here's what I hope is some clarifying info. Yes it's detailed!

Males with 5-ARD do not have a uterus or other female internal structures, but they do have what looks like a vagina, so are often sexed as females. However they are males with normal testes, which produce typical male hormones. Those hormones, among other things, prevent the development of female internal reproductive structures (like the uterus and cervix).

In embryonic development, we all start out with two sets of primordial duct systems, one set that will develop into the male internal reproductive stuff (the Wolffian ducts, which become the epididymis, vas deferens and seminal vesicles), and another that develops into the female internal stuff (the Müllerian ducts, which become the upper part of the vagina, cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes, pic at the end).

In males, fetal testes don't only produce testosterone! They also make Anti-Mullerian Hormone (AMH), which is crucial for getting rid of the Mullerian ducts, and thus, ensuring that the eventual uterus, etc. don't develop. If there's no testes and no AMH, that female internal stuff will develop.

Males need high levels of T for male-typical development of all the male reproductive structures. Without T production and action, the external (penis and scrotum) and internal (described above) genitalia won't develop. But as I wrote in my monster tweet yesterday, T alone isn't enough for development of the penis and scrotum (and prostate): for that, T must be converted into DHT (a more potent androgen, production pathway below), and people with 5-ARD don't make the necessary enzyme to carry out that conversion. So they end up with what appears to be a vagina.

FYI, some males inherit a genetic mutation that means they can't produce AMH. They are typical males, but have a nonfunctional uterus and fallopian tubes inside their abdomen. The condition often not discovered until adulthood (it's called Persistent Müllerian Duct Syndrome). AMH is an important hormone for males, but hardly anyone even knows it exists.

Also, the testes generally don't descend into the scrotum before birth (as usual) without DHT, but they often do at puberty when testosterone levels reach high concentrations. So males with 5-ARD may be "sexed" as female, due to the female-appearing external genitalia.

But brain and the rest of the body are typically male. Most people with the condition will "transition" to living as a male once they realize they are male, and this often happens at puberty, when the testes descend and the body develops in a typically masculine way.

x.com

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819449064590582073?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

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