Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

[StrumpersPlunkett]

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

I don't know what you mean by safe. You will get honest non-abusive responses if that's what you mean. And with proper SPAG!

Ask away - we are not the #nodebate crew trying to shut down people asking questions!

And it's all anonymous here so please speak freely. No stupid questions!

As in...there are no stupid questions...

OK thanks,
so..
I feel that I am being pushed to be pro or anti trans rights. For me it is a much more nuanced discussion.
Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How do I find a space where it is acceptable to be a trans ally without having to believe they can replace the very hard fought womens role in society/sport/politics? etc/

I think it's possible to have a nuanced view but the most important thing (I think) to keep in mind that you can't really consent for other women.

So you may be happy to share changing room spaces with men but you can't really expect that other women should also be comfortable to do so.

There is a case atm where nurses are taking their NHS Trust to a tribunal because they were expected to share changing room space with a male (who by all accounts was exhibiting inappropriate behaviour) and when the women complained they were told to re-educate themselves. Women like this should not be expected to consent simply because another woman in the hospital doesn't mind if they are sharing intimate spaces with men.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

I personally think that you have to first define what it means to be a "trans ally". Does it mean supporting trans people to not be abused in the street, discriminated against for housing or fired for dressing as they wish? Or does it go further to support trans people using single sex spaces, applying for scholarships reserved for women, jobs for which being female is considered essential? Or going even further, is it to change your thinking to assert that a trans woman is in actual fact, female so the David Lammy belief of a trans woman actually growing a cervix?

Different trans people will say different things about what they expect of allies so it is for you to decide yourself where your sense of fairness lies. There is no getting away from the fact that there is a clash of rights here - a single sex service cannot be provided if male people can use that service, it's not a whole "rights aren't like pie" situation.

I personally have not felt threatened in mixed sex toilets but I realised many years ago that I had no right to make that decision for other women who have different needs than me, because of prior SA, religious faith, or just because women are more vulnerable while using a toilet.

I feel strongly that we should have third spaces and more provision for people who feel excluded from single sex male and female spaces. Many trans people reject this as it makes them feel not affirmed. But my response to this would be that women are not here to affirm other people's beliefs about themselves.

Also I have two "old-school" transwomen in my parents's generation of my family/family friends, one of whom was at my wedding. Both of them are clear that they are male and would use male toilets when out and about (though to be honest they will take extra steps not to have to, eg paying for a coffee so they can use the toilet in a coffee shop with just a single cubicle). I find it incredibly frustrating that when I have raised these issues with friends who believe transwomen are women, I am told to "listen to transpeople" as if I hadn't grown up with them.

You have to decide whether you believe men who say they are women actually are.

If you believe TWAW then naturally you would say that they should be treated as women in all circumstances and admitted to all things female because they are women.

If you believe TWAM then naturally you would exclude them from all single sex spaces, clubs, sports, prisons, hospitals, etc. which are just for women.

You can't really believe both.

Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
What do you mean 'supported and treated well'? Who decides what support and treatment is beneficial for them? What is the differential diagnosis for 'body dis-morphia'?

Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Is a male that enters female spaces not already showing signs of boundary violation and thus, has some of the sexual predatory characteristics that have been known about for decades?

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
This penis is usually connected to a man, who already has a perfectly useable toilet usually across the corridor. He is taking the space from a woman which, especially at busy times, means women can be in the queue leaking into their underwear, or in great pain. A man is more likely to install a hidden camera so I'm guessing you are ok with any images shot appearing on porn sites across the world? There have been hundreds of threads about what one man does to a female space, this is just scraping the surface.

Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
You mean puberty, and are you saying that you think boys should have their puberty blocked in order to qualify for racing against women? This is a very confused and quite activisty sentence you have used here. What is it you are actually trying to say here?

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes
You can call your friend what you want. But your friend needs to know that he cannot ever be a woman, and if women read him as male they have every right to act accordingly. You do not have the right to give up every other woman's rights to single sex spaces.

YAY thank you! this is exactly the kind of discussion I am yearning for!
You are absolutely right - I do not have the right to consent for other women, nor would I want to and I do find it very complicated to think of someone I used to work with who had gender reassignment surgery in 1998. Should a she be allowed to use spaces reserved for women?

With regard to unacceptable behaviour I feel it should be no different to any other kind of unprofessional behaviour. There should be disciplinary measures and in my opinion under no circumstances should the majority have to change their thought processes to appease someone not behaving appropriately.

I do wonder about actual numbers of things...
How many people in the UK identify as a gender different to their birth?
How many of those have had gender reassignment surgery?
How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women? - Is there actually a significant risk? (This is not to take away someones right to feel uncomfortable with it!)

How many teenagers who have gender confusion go on to identify with their birth gender?

Argh when I have tried to look at these things on line it is all from polarised perspectives.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How far do you take this though? Yes refer to this person as she/her if you wish but do you think it's fair that this person who is (I presume) biologically male enters women's single sex spaces when women are saying no we do not want biological men in our single sex spaces?

The phrase 'safe space' sets off alarm bells on any of these posts, for me. This is an anonymous forum with a strong feminism section - of course it's safe. Unlike actual women's spaces which are being colonised with males who think being a woman is a feeling in their heads.

The problem is what you mean by 'trans rights'? Your friend may well be absolutely saintly, but he is not a woman, and just because he is your friend, doesn't mean any other woman should have to share certain spaces with him.

Being supported and treated well is a given, but treated well means different things to different people. I don't think castrating young men is treating them well in any circumstances. I think to treat them well would be to affirm that no one is born in the wrong body and that altering the body to appease the mind over issues based on stereotypes is extreme mistreatment. I don't think insisting twaw is treating them well. People who wish to present as the opposite sex have different medical, physical and emotional needs. Pretending sex isn't immutable ignores this.

There is also a real need to understand modern identity culture. This isn't the odd gay guy in his 40's struggling very badly and respecting women's reality. Porn culture and identity politics means this movement does include an awful lot of predatory males. No one said all of them, altho any male insisting on using women's spaces IS absolutely predatory if you ask me; but pretending there aren't hundreds and hundreds of men for whom this is a humiliation / domination fetish is so naive. Expecting women to accept all of those as women because your friend is lovely is madness.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How does this work in practice though?
Your friend is no doubt lovely. How about the ones that aren't though? Once you let any male into female spaces, they all can come in.
Being trans is literally the thought in a person's head, how can you regulate that? It doesn't mean official diagnosis, medication, surgery. It's literally that the person thinks it and now they can go into opposite sex space, how do we deal with this?

I'm not sure that the answers to these will be "polarised perspectives" as much as "facts". Some of which, some find uncomfortable.

How many people in the UK identify as a gender different to their birth?
How many of those have had gender reassignment surgery?
How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women? - Is there actually a significant risk? (This is not to take away someones right to feel uncomfortable with it!)

None of this matters. Men are a higher risk to women. Men in prison who say they are women are three times as likely to be there for sexual offences than men who don't say they are women.

There should be disciplinary measures and in my opinion under no circumstances should the majority have to change their thought processes to appease someone not behaving appropriately.

The reason we assess risk differently for males and females is due to behaviour. It is always better to avoid risk rather than have another female destroyed for life.

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

Does it matter? How many women need to be assaulted by males presenting as women before we are allowed to complain?

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no

Depends on the set up for me but my comfort levels will differ to people who've suffered sexual assault or have religious restrictions.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Again nuanced but I tend to polite in public spaces ie if told pronouns are expected will try and use -as I think most people do but my DD2 at school as girl who flip flops between pronouns and names and flies off handle to people making a mistake ( common in my family were nouns and pronouns, names can get mixed up due to dyslexia and various ND) - so will back her if she gets into trouble with school or this girl as it's not malicious.

I think as trans activists have got more demanding and vocal tolerance has been eroded and postilions entrenched - but you have to consider the whole "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man - aspect it's always women expected to do with out budge up and offer compromises - women toilets which already tend to have longer queue which tend to get made mixed sex while men often keep theirs. Mixed sex changing room have higher numbers of sexual assaults - but this often gets swept away and ignored.

It sounds as if you've done a lot of thinking about the subject already, OP, and have found positions that are acceptable to you. There are some aspects that I wouldn't agree with, e.g. not being bothered with men using women's toilets, and I hope you don't think that just because it doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother any women, because it does.

I don't think there's much need for any more 'trans allies', there seems to be an abundance of them in the media, education, medicine, politics etc etc, so you just do you, in whatever way seems thoughtful, valid, evidence-based and rational to you.

What's the significance of the actual numbers? The man next to my daughter on Primarks changing area probably won't attack her, but does she have the right not to expose her 14 year old body to him because only a few have attacked teens?

It's all very well to push the idea that's the debate is toxic because it's polarised, but that polarisation is unavoidable. Either all men are excluded and no child should be surgically or chemically altered, or none. You can't pick and choose which of these men are allowed in a women's prison, insist they have the surgery, or say some children are more trans than others. It's polarised because sexual is immutable and you either understand that or ignore it.

If you are really confused about Puberty Blockers, and why they ended up treating kids for liking the wrong toys...make a coffee and have a read through this thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5057269-5057269-puberty-blockers-how-exactly-did-we-get-here?reply=134629481

The line for me was when "transgender" changed from meaning "someone who strongly wishes to be the opposite sex" - which has its own issues around the subjects you mention, but could have been sensibly discussed and some solutions reached.

Now it means "you are one sex, but you have this thing called gender identity which is innate and indefinable, but it is the sole determining factor in whether you are a man or a woman, because those terms no longer mean "male" or "female", and there is also such a thing as genders "matching" each sex even though being either male or female can mean you're a man, and if you don't have this matchup between sex and gender identity then you can be trans, and you're trans if you say you are, and also literally a woman if you say you are".

The dishonesty and contradictions have led people to get very muddled about what they even mean when they use the words man and woman. And people have taken advantage of this to shut down practical discussions by deeming everyone transphobic who won't nod along to things that don't make sense.

We need to lose this whole concept of "i have a woman gender which means I am literally a woman, which both does and doesn't mean female" and get back to actual gender dysphoria.

If we lived in a sexism-free society we'd have no connotations about "what women are like" but people can't separate "female" from any kind of stereotype or concept of femininity.

My DH is a saint. Wouldn't hurt anyone and totally understands and agrees that women need, deserve are are entitled to privacy, dignity, safety and, I would add, respect. He is also excluded from female spaces. Not because he's a predator but because he's male.

Transwomen are male. It's literally the only qualification needed. Females cannot be transwomen. So why should those males be treated any differently to the rest of the male population? Why should they be afforded special treatment to ignore boundaries and safe guarding?

That's what you should perhaps be thinking about OP.

I am very thankful for all your replies so far - and thank you for explaining rather than just being irritated by my thoughts.

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender. Specifically people born male who identify as female.

I wouldn't have the courage to have these conversations in real life so you have been a real help.

I am popping out so if there are further posts I haven't run away.

PS just to say I am totally clear on my views on puberty blockers. Absolutely feel they are wrong for these issues.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Nobody born male has spent a single second 'living as a woman'.