Jolyon jumps the shark - is trans a cult?

[CantDealwithChristmas]

Jolyon 'fox killer' Maugham has been on one for 6 days straight now. It all started with Streeting's PBs ban and ratcheted up when JoMo sent Streeting a list of 25 questions which Streeting ignored - and on a Sunday too. As of yesterday JoMo, a KC (though Guido Fawkes reported his licence expired in May), was encouraging people to break the law by accessing banned PB drugs from abroad. As of today he has well and truly jumped the shark with the below, horrible post on X.

My question to this board is why do TRAs feel the need to ratchet up the emotional temperature of the debate so high? Why do they so quickly devolve the conversation to death and suicide? It's an ugly strain that runs right through all TRA talking points. I personally think TRA is an eschatological cult and the focus on death is a intrinsic part of that. Others may think it's all about emotional blackmail.

Either way, please use this thread to discuss JoMo, Streeting's unaccounably cruel ignoring of him, and TRA emotional hysteria / threats in general at this crucial time just after the PB ban was announced.

EDIT - could not upload the screenshot of JoMo's post but it reads as follows:

"And don't underestimate the political tail of Wes Streeting's decision. His colleagues will slowly be coming to terms with him locking them into a future of bereaved parents tipping ashes outside Number 10 and a revival of mass die-ins wherever they go."

No - you don't sense a hint - you see a tsunami of women, parents and decent men horrified at how mentally vulnerable children have been experimented on and abused by the medical profession, cynical trans lobbyists out to pursue their own wishes & some of the trusted adults meant to care for and protect them. Although we're talking about the abuse of one individual male born child, we're also aware that the majority victims of all this are now girls and young women, cynically targeted by the above.

No hints - fucking furious rage at evident child abuse.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

this has just been posted.

That's absolutely damning of people who have been instrumentalising the issue.

As has been frequently pointed out on this board, there is a big difference between the various groups identifying as trans. I am not a scientist or an HCP but it would be very remarkable if an adult male who went through a normal male puberty at the normal age and then starts taking cross-hormones in middle age or later had the same experience as a male child who takes puberty blockers to stop puberty getting under way for several years, falls behind his peers socially, emotionally and physically, and then has a much delayed puberty while taking drugs to suppress his body's normal testosterone production (which in a normal male puberty should be soaring at this point) and to introduce oestrogen in far larger quantities than a normal healthy male of any age would ever have. It is incredible that the children affected by this experiment have not been properly monitored and once they move on to the adult services there is no follow up at all as far as I'm aware.

Amazing chutzpah for one of the former group, because that's what I'm assuming Butterfly is, to come on here and start lecturing us for being concerned about what this unregulated medical experiment might be doing to vulnerable children.

Its not just the TV execs who are culpable, its the US viewing audience who didnt kick up an almighty stink!
I simply cant believe it kept airing, bystanders who not only do nothing, but actively seek it out are enabling the abuse. And that includes people like Exulansic who use it to power their online career.
I saw 2minutes and that was enough to write an email.

I'm sure JM will be relieved, perhaps a little shame faced, to read that Gov. publication and know all his scaremongering fears weren't warranted. I bet any second he'll be TwiXing apologies and retractions...any second...he's a busy bloke...refunds to issue...any moment now...

Might be worth a thread of its own ad its do important 😊

That report is very thorough. It leaves no doubt that the ban will be permanent.

As has been frequently pointed out on this board, there is a big difference between the various groups identifying as trans.

This can't be said too many times. And the fact that men who get gender euphoria from dressing as females and being in female spaces were ever allowed, indeed encouraged, to be in the same internet chatrooms and fora to help crack the eggs of body dysmorphic teens (as they were on the Mermaids site and on Discord, for example) is a massive safeguarding red flag in itself.

Worth posting the summary as it's powerful:

Summary of conclusions

1. The data do not support the claim that there has been a large rise in suicide in young gender dysphoria patients at the Tavistock.
2. The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide.
3. The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence.
4. There is a need to move away from the perception that puberty-blocking drugs are the main marker of non-judgemental acceptance in this area of health care.
5. We need to ensure high quality data in which everyone has confidence, as the basis of improved safety for this at risk group of young people.

Thanks for posting. Well now I hope JM and others will tone down the outrageous and irresponsible claims of imminent suicides of children.

And the fact that men who get gender euphoria from dressing as females and being in female spaces were ever allowed, indeed encouraged, to be in the same internet chatrooms and fora to help crack the eggs of body dysmorphic teens (as they were on the Mermaids site and on Discord, for example) is a massive safeguarding red flag in itself.

It’s truly the stuff of nightmares.

Oh my. It actually mentions the Good Law Project. JM has well and truly had his wrist slapped in public and been ordered to take a seat.

Look up your foxes, MN-ers. None of them are safe from JoMo's rage today.

Public discussion of suicide
Responsible reporting of suicide in the media is an important strand of suicide prevention, and a central feature of the national suicide prevention strategy in England. Guidance has been developed by Samaritans, originally for the news media but with wider applicability to any public discussion of suicide, and increasingly relevant to social media.
The risks include:

• alarming stories about suicide causing distress to people who are themselves at risk
• identification - when someone sees in themselves a connection with a person who has died by suicide; leading to:
• imitation and suicide clusters in people with similar characteristics

As a result, the media - and users of social media - are asked to:

• ensure that any claims about suicide are evidence-based and from a reliable source
• avoid alarming and dramatic language
• avoid the impression that suicide is the expected or likely outcome in certain situations
• avoid oversimplifying suicide by attributing it to a single cause which could be the basis of identification

Claims The claims have been led by the legal campaign group the Good Law Project, who are challenging the decision by the previous Health Secretary to end the prescription of puberty-blocking drugs by private clinics to children and young people with gender dysphoria. The central claim, made on X (formerly known as Twitter), is that there has been a large rise in suicide by current and recent patients of the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) service at the Tavistock since an earlier restriction of puberty-blocking drugs that followed a High Court decision in a case (Bell v Tavistock) in December 2020. The rise is described as a “surge” in suicides and “an explosion”, indicating a substantial and, by implication, unequivocal increase. There are multiple references to children dying in future because they are unable to access puberty-blocking drugs. This claim is said to be based on unpublished data provided by 2 members of staff at the Tavistock, described as whistleblowers. On Twitter/X the evidence is presented in screenshots of extracts from the records of Tavistock Board meetings and other documents. These variously refer to suicides, deaths from unspecified causes and “safety incidents”. A specific claim is that there was one suicide by a patient on the GIDS waiting list in the 3 years before the High Court judgment, and 16 deaths (rather than suicides) in the 3 years after the judgment. The whistleblowers are said to have alleged a cover-up by NHSE. These claims have been retweeted thousands of times by other campaigners and members of the public. They have been repeated by some leading journalists, though there is nothing to suggest that they have examined the evidence for themselves. They too have adopted the language of “dying children”.

@CantDealwithChristmas Wow. Just wow. That has to be pretty much unheard of in a report of this kind.

Now off to TwiX to see whether JM goes offline for a bit or explodes. One is clearly the sensible strategy, so I suspect he may choose the other.

Conclusions

1. The data do not support the claim that there has been a large rise in suicide by young patients attending the gender services at the Tavistock since the High Court ruling in 2020 or after any other recent date. The figures for the 6 years covered in this review are 12 suicides in total, 2 per year on average, of whom half were under 18. With small numbers, single-figure differences can be expected and causal explanations are unreliable.

The patients who died were in different points in the care system, including post-discharge, suggesting no consistent link to any one aspect of care. They had multiple social and clinical risk factors for suicide. However, it is likely that there has been a rise over a longer period as young people at risk have increasingly presented with gender dysphoria and referrals to GIDS have risen. There is a degree of uncertainty about the deaths recorded as “suicide not confirmed”. It is possible that more information on these cases would result in amended figures for individual years but the numbers remain too small to affect my conclusions.

1. The way that this issue has been discussed on social media has been insensitive, distressing and dangerous, and goes against guidance on safe reporting of suicide. One risk is that young people and their families will be terrified by predictions of suicide as inevitable without puberty blockers - some of the responses on social media show this.

Another is identification, already-distressed adolescents hearing the message that “people like you, facing similar problems, are killing themselves”, leading to imitative suicide or self-harm, to which young people are particularly susceptible. Then there is the insensitivity of the “dead child” rhetoric. Suicide should not be a slogan or a means to winning an argument. To the families of 200 teenagers a year in England, it is devastating and all too real.

1. The claims that have been placed in the public domain do not meet basic standards for statistical evidence. To be reliable, evidence should be objective, unbiased and open to independent scrutiny. It should admit uncertainty.

Campaign groups are often selective about evidence - there is nothing wrong with this until it becomes misleading and potentially harmful. The evidence put into the public domain for an “explosion” of suicides is not unbiased nor has it been independently verified. There seems to be no suicide expertise behind the claims.

1. Suicide by any young person is a profound tragedy: it should be seen as an indictment of our society. Young people with gender dysphoria may well have experienced ostracism and abuse, and their distress is likely to be heightened if services are perceived as rejecting. It is unfortunate that puberty-blocking drugs have come to be seen as the touchstone issue, the difference between acceptance and non-acceptance. We need to move away from this perception among patients, staff and the public.

This is a group of young people who need compassion and security, skilled clinical assessment, early treatment for mental illnesses such as depression, support within their families and schools and online, and an expectation of recovery and a fulfilling future. It is vital that these are the assurances the NHS and its partner agencies are able to convey.

1. In the end this is about a group of young people at risk of suicide and our collective responsibility to their safety. This means specialist health services with the capacity to respond to rising demand and appropriate skills in general services. It means a measured public discourse, making sure we do not stoke up prejudice or cause unnecessary alarm to the young people and their families.

We need to ensure also that we have high quality data in which everyone has confidence. The number of deaths should be monitored, not only in gender services but other mainstream databases, as is now happening in NCMD and in my own unit, the National Confidential Inquiry. Future prevention will depend on it.

I'm sure JM will be cobbling together a rebuttal based on every but, caveat or qualification mentioned in the report. It will be edited to wholly endorse JM's viewpoint. That's what they've done with Cass after all. Plus they will claim its politically motivated.

If any of the three sensible women Jolly hadn't yet blocked are on here, please get screenshots. 😁

I hope he takes extra note of this bit:

"Then there is the insensitivity of the “dead child” rhetoric. Suicide should not be a slogan or a means to winning an argument. To the families of 200 teenagers a year in England, it is devastating and all too real."

I have to say, I'm bloody delighted at that scathing rebuttal.

What a twat Jolyon is.

@teawamutu Always happy to be a sensible woman, although not sure why he hasn't blocked me as I'm on all the auto blocking lists.

Absolutely.
Why didn’t the social worker and emergency medicine parents tell their 4 year old the truth?
That a male child is a boy, always will be male, but can wear/play/like whatever they want.
That human beings can’t change sex, ever.
That they will love them always and always tell them the truth.

How dare those parents abuse and damage that child so severely?
How horrific for that child when they are old enough to realise that, outside the special trans bubble they exist in, people think what their parents have done is wrong, child abuse and denial of reality.

Everyone who has lied to this child and continues to lie to them is beyond despicable.

I am also on the auto blocking lists, but wasn't blocked until in passing I compared RS Archer to him. Then I was immediately dispatched. I've never directly interacted with him and can only think he has a automated name search set up if such a thing exists.

I'm not blocked but I can't seem to find his ranting 20 something point thread at the moment. It might be me just rushing or could he possibly have removed it? I will look again when have a bit more time.

For those blocked, since the 18th July (the gvt review is dated the 19th) JM has posted twice re Hilary Cass being the only person picked for doing the review, and the two tweets below. His other tweets just today are about Keir Starmer (Israel), the law (Just Stop Oil sentencing), and Tony Blair's consultancy work.

JM:
A week ago Wes Streeting, ignoring the advice of doctors and civil servants, without consulting trans people, ignoring the profound risks to them, going beyond the politicised Cass report, banned a drug used worldwide, for decades, without proven ill effects. We will not forget.
6:56 AM · Jul 19, 2024

Jo Maugham

@JolyonMaugham
·
10h

And to those who observe this isn't really what Wes Streeting thinks: we know. But we don't think that ambition and expediency makes a wicked act better. We think it makes it worse.

"No hints - fucking furious rage at evident child abuse"

Well said👏👏👏
I can't wait for those who have allowed vulnerable fucking children to be harmed in this way are made to face up to the damage they've caused to confused kids they should have been protecting. It cannot come soon enough.