Used an 'all genders' bathroom today

[Dominoodles]

Sent to the theatre today and ended up in an 'all genders' bathroom. Walked in and came face to face with a man and we both instinctively apologised to each other. There was this instant understanding that we should not be sharing that space.

The toilet itself was awful. There was urine splattered all over the seat, a pool of urine on the floor around the base of the toilet, and no sanitary bin that I could see.

I can't say I felt unsafe, exactly - the only man in there was perfectly polite. But it didn't feel 'all genders'. It felt like I was in the men's and everything was covered in pee and nothing catering to women at all. I felt like an intruder, and that it was not a place for women.

I never gave any thought to the concept before but now I feel really uncomfortable about it and I don't really know how to put it into words. What are your thoughts on 'all gender' public bathrooms? I'd love to pick the brains of some ladies here.

Thinking back to my younger days young women always seemed to go to the loos in pairs. Isn't that normal anymore?

I'd prefer cubicles even in a women only space so I'd like them to spend the money. Other people might feel like me so it might be a problem for others.

Looking at the stories the girls who were raped went in on their own or were trying to get away from someone that went in with them. Theres lots from very recent years so either something has changed which makes it happen more or it’s being reported more.

@Keeptoiletssafe I thought of you today. I travelled to a regional centre that has over the last few years had millions of dollars of state government funding poured into it. The public toilets I went to have been renovated to be much like those described by the OP, except some were labelled "Toilet" and "Toilet With Urinal" and three were labelled "Female Toilet." I do wonder how this compromise was arrived at.

There was a gap of about an inch under the door, but it was otherwise hermetically sealed. I may be mistaken, but it looked to me like the hook on the back of the door had been modified in the way that they are in psychiatric wards, to prevent them being hanging points for suicidal people (I've worked in acute wards as a psych nurse). I was going to look at all the cubicles to see if they were the same but I lost heart, it's so grim. Why is all this money being spent creating public amenities that then have to have more money spent on them to stop them being a suicide risk for vulnerable people?

Thank you for thinking about toilet safety. I hope people start looking at all the practicalities of design features from lots of different viewpoints. Yes there’s a couple of tragic stories in schools of that too.

And maybe they eventually will but in the meantime we have to live with what we've got so it has to be single sex.

Thinking back to my younger days young women always seemed to go to the loos in pairs. Isn't that normal anymore?

Why do you think win green worldwide go to the loo in pairs or groups? It's not just to continue their chats - it's for safety. Safety against predatory men.

Your post reads as though you expect women to budge up and accept the dangers that come with men using women's toilets - and to take responsibility for keeping themselves safe from dangerous men invading spaces were women should reasonably expect to already be safe from them!

Why would I waste my time lying on the Internet? Believe me or don't I don't really care. I also won't be saying where I worked because it's a public forum.

It was utterly bizarre and our cleaning staff ended up refusing to clean because of it and rightly so. My point was simply that womens toilets can be grim and I don't think hygiene is gender specific. I use gender neutral toilets in my current work and they're always reasonable which I appreciate since I'm the one who currently cleans it while we're sourcing a cleaner. Anyone can be respectful or disrespectful of a shared space is my point. And no I've never smelt male toilets bad enough that they reeked from outside.

I don't know how commonplace these 'urinals and cubicles' and 'urinals only' loos are in pubs these days, but from what I gather they are becoming more common, especially in cities. I noticed them when I was in London the other week. But surely this is a rather cynical ploy by the breweries/pub owners? Seems to me they calculate, say 75-80% of their custom are men, so therefore effectively give men access to the women's loos, thus freeing up more facilities. Obviously not good news for women. Pubs should surely be required by law to provide toilet facilities which are women-only. In an environment where people may be drunk, that's even more important, surely?

I've never smelt male toilets bad enough that they reeked from outside.

I have, believe me it was rank. It was a pub in Wolverhampton and was popular with students and office workers. The men's loo was at the back and when the door was opened the smell would rush out and permeate the entire pub, even over the smell of beer and cigarette smoke. A great shame as it was a nice pub.

Surely that's a cleaning issue then? Every bathroom should be well enough maintained that it's not smelling to that extent. Any time I've been in a nasty bathroom (the workplace one I mentioned earlier aside because that was clearly an individuals issue) my first thought is that it's not being cleaned properly by the business who's responsible for it? We had to let our cleaner go from my current workplace because she wasn't cleaning the bathroom, I was having to go in and do it after she left because she said it was done but it wasn't. So either she was just refusing or had different standards of cleanliness than I do. I've never assigned gender to the issue. If they stink they need cleaned more or the plumbing looked at.

@Lavender14 - your experiences are valid, thank you for sharing.

So also are the experiences of many others - it only takes the person in front of you, to leave urine on the seat and on the floor, to make an unpleasant experience for a woman who has to sit on the toilet and pull down her trousers.

The discomfort of being in a state of undress, while there are unknown men around is something that many women experience - it does not mean that all men are rapists but many of us are affected by this feeling of discomfort where we feel vulnerable. These feelings are valid, even if for the most part, we will not be raped in the toilet, the number of women who will experience sexual harassment and sexual violence during their lives is very high. The fact that most of the time we go out, we do not experience rape, does not remove the fear that we might one day experience sexual violence or that we have already experienced it.

Most of us will never be in a car crash - but we wear seat belts, have central reservations on the motorway and our cars are designed to minimise the impact of a crash.

I think most of the times I have been in an 'all genders' toilet, I have come out thinking - ugh.. that was unpleasant... ladies toilet's are less likely to have urine on the seat and floor.

@Lavender14 Cleaning issues are to some extent inevitable. Yes, everyone would like a clean toilet but the fact is, not all toilets are cleaned regularly enough. Let's deal with reality. Unisex toilets have no advantages, especially for women.

Most women on this thread: Loos used by men are generally wetter, dirtier, smellier unless constantly cleaned. Men's urine, like that of other male mammals, smells stronger - ask anyone who's had the misfortune of encountering tomcat pee.

Righteous: Women's loos are as bad or worse, men's pee is specially fragrant amongst the animal kingdom, because reasons. (See also male violence, male paraphilias, etc).

Like I said before, I'd be happy for there to be mixed-sex toilets as long as it is alongside full and properly signposted single-sex provision. And the Righteous should show their allyship by devotedly using the mixed-sex facilities only.

As usual too, the sole reason for the arguing that women do it too/are worse/women's voices and experiences are irrelevant?

Is to take women's stuff to give to men. It is for no other reason than to enable male supremacism.

They can fuck off with that.

I’m not entirely sure men’s urine smells any different but certainly it varies from person to person depending on what they eat or how dehydrated they might be! I think it’s much more to do with the fact they pee everywhere apart from the toilet…Especially when drunk. I live with 3 so do know they have trouble aiming sometimes.

Tbf ive been in many a female toilet with piss on the floor from the toilet hoverers but I take your point. More education for men about closing doors and lifting toilet seats wouldnt go a miss

Or just keep it separate. Better for women

"came face to face with a man and we both instinctively apologised to each other. There was this instant understanding that we should not be sharing that space."

Understandable if this is the first time in your lives you have used an all-gender bathroom. But for countries where these bathrooms are very normal (virtually all over Europe), people don't care.

And yes, let's not pretend women's bathrooms are sparkling clean palaces.

Why are you so desperate to force non consenting women to pee with men?

What do you mean "pee with men". Are the cubicles being shared?

I wasn't commenting on putting up with it, I was commenting on you saying it wasn't a problem to anyone else. It might be, it would be a problem for me and I can't imagine I'm the only woman who would prefer a cubicle.

The 'progressive' types thought it was a fabulous idea. No-one else did.

I went to a pub recently where there were two options: a unisex one and one for men only - no women only option obviously. ALL the men went to the men only option. The women had to queue up for the gender neutral ones because the full length cubicles with wash basins means there isn't so much space, so fewer loos. Marvellous.

I have also experienced men being equally uncomfortable at going into mixed loos, much dirtier cubicles etc.

Well when we did it we were often having a chat we didn't want in front of men, I don't think I ever thought of safety. Regardless of that the post I replied to was referring to women having to change their behaviour and I wonder if it is a change or what we have done for years.

I think it’s much more to do with the fact they pee everywhere apart from the toilet…Especially when drunk. I live with 3 so do know they have trouble aiming sometimes.

I also live with 3 men, and not one of them leaves any mess. Not since they were tall enough to pee standing up. They wipe up any mess because their father taught them to behave with respect. One does have trouble aiming (for a structural reason) but he also wipes up any mess.

Men behave badly because they choose to do so. Because society enables them. Boys will be boys. It's only bantz. They can't help it. Toxic gendered expectations that men will do as they wish and women will clean up their mess.