Used an 'all genders' bathroom today

[Dominoodles]

Sent to the theatre today and ended up in an 'all genders' bathroom. Walked in and came face to face with a man and we both instinctively apologised to each other. There was this instant understanding that we should not be sharing that space.

The toilet itself was awful. There was urine splattered all over the seat, a pool of urine on the floor around the base of the toilet, and no sanitary bin that I could see.

I can't say I felt unsafe, exactly - the only man in there was perfectly polite. But it didn't feel 'all genders'. It felt like I was in the men's and everything was covered in pee and nothing catering to women at all. I felt like an intruder, and that it was not a place for women.

I never gave any thought to the concept before but now I feel really uncomfortable about it and I don't really know how to put it into words. What are your thoughts on 'all gender' public bathrooms? I'd love to pick the brains of some ladies here.

'I never gave any thought to the concept before but now I feel really uncomfortable about it '
Glad to hear you admit it, because since 2018 we have all seen so many women often well known, who have said dont be a bigot 'it wouldnt bother me''.
Such a huge fail of imagination and ironically, empathy.

It felt like I was in the men's and everything was covered in pee and nothing catering to women at all. I felt like an intruder, and that it was not a place for women.

This is because any space that has men in it automatically becomes a man's space. Men (collectively, a few might) won't change their behaviour or habits for women's comfort.

With document T, having single sex toilets will be the default (even if they are universal in design) if the premises is big enough for lots of toilets. Then a universal toilet. So a small cafe can still have one mixed sex universal style toilet, but a lot of the theatres and work places that have been talked about will have to have separate male and female toilets. What the definition who can use the female toilets is debatable but they will have a female sign on them. Any non domestic premises (except schools and a couple of other exceptions) refurbishing their toilets or a new building will have to abide by Document T from October. Unless the new government change it.
The problem is that because of privacy concerns, there’s going to be many premises using the enclosed designs in single sex toilets as well which are less safe.

But that's the problem, most places don't rip out the existing Ladies and Gents loos, they just rebadge them "Gender Neutral - Cubicles" and "Gender Neutral - Cubicles and Urinals" or similar. I get the impression they rarely bother to put sanitary bins in the cubicles of the latter ones either, although I admit I've not done an exhaustive survey on the matter.

Where on earth do you work? I can smell a load of shit myself now you mention it.

I would say even when there are more females and small children they are not as bad.

One local pub has the changing area in the disabled dloo (as do a lot of places) but you have to walk past it to get ot the ladies / gents and the pub is child friendly so they are quite heavily used, but they are clean.

Is there any reason, other than the small, why males find disabled toilets are the best place to have a poo?

For me it's emblematic of the spoiled, entitled and financially entitled worldview TRAs have. They must all have been brought up rich because they never seem to understand that the vast changes they so casually demand of the material world around them cost money and time to achieve and the cost will fall on small and medium sized entrepreneurs, and the taxpayer more generally.

To say nothing of the cost in safety and peace of mind.

It's like they think the material world is one of their online games where they can casually make huge changes to the infrastructure with a click of their mouse, and everything else will remain the same.

They have the minds of children.

Unless your last workplace was the Maze in 1980, I greatly doubt your story.

Exactly. I often get this reaction when I talk about the tw who is insisting on showering with women in a local sports club. The club is council run, ancient and the showers and changing areas are divided by sex but otherwise completely open. "It's simple - cubicles!" But it would cost thousands to refit to solve a problem that is not even a problem for anyone else. (Said person was offered a separate space but really wants to change with the women....)

Exactly. It's the same with AI facial recognition programmes. They are so key in border control in a world in which international terrorist and people trafficking organisations are more mobile than they've ever been. Problem is, facial recognition software is also a great big terf. It knows whether you're male or female because the male skull has a bigger more jutting brow and narrower philtrum. You can't get rid of those things with make up or lipstick or a spinny spinny skirt..

I've seen TRAs online argue that FRS should be programmed to 'recognise' transwomen, or even, not determine sex at all. Well we could do that but it'll give people traffickers more of a free reign. So we're just going to let 1000s of vulnerable people suffer so that a few dudes can get that good good 'gender euphoria' going through an airport? PLEASE.

Maybe the issue is they need to clean more. Toilets should just be enclosed cubicles, so much easier. And much easier as a parent with different sex child. and be grateful we have toilets, lots don't. Honestly blows my mind on MN what people actually get annoyed about.

Enclosed cubicles are not really a safe option.

@Peonies12 Nice of you to edit to get in a little dig at women who do find this important, though!

It’s so basic to just let women have their own single sex toilets. Why change it.

And who exactly is going to spend all the money to:

• Get planning permission from the landlord
• Get in new architects
• Re-design shop floor
• Rip out and rebuild
• Re-plumb
• Fit out

....all so your shop/cafe/clinic/library/office has less floor space?

Less floor space leading to...

• Less footfall
• Less seated trade
• Less revenue
• Lower profit margins
• Few jobs

...and why do all this when we have a system that works perfectly well as long as it's used right?

They can't be 'elsewhere'. Women are not going to want to use a sanitary bin in the public area. Maybe you missed it? Even so, it sounds utterly grim. Who thinks 'all gender' lavatories are a good idea? Not TiMs, for sure, as there is no validation there (one good thing about them, I suppose?).

It's odd that no-one picks up that fully enclosed toilets with wash basin and loo are not safe. Anyone could be hiding in there - I always thrust the door backwards so anyone behind it be hit - and cameras are easy to conceal by anyone who wants to do that!

If you try reading the many posts of women who explain exactly why they don't like or want mixed sex toilets you may find yourself developing some empathy and compassion.

There is no demand for mixed sex toilets comong from anywhere. The demand is for single sex provisions. And some trans identified male people are demanding access to women's provisions.

Those who actively want mixed sex provisions could maybe suggest to providers a discrete provision that meets their need - rather than dismissing the expressed needs of many many more.

Now try imagining a mixed sex access corridor in a busy night time venue........do you think women might feel safe in such circumstances?

Of the bovine variety.

"Be grateful we have toilets"?

In places where women do not have discrete toilet ( or any) toliet provision - they are in danger of assault and rape,

Nobody has an issue with boys in women's toilets - if they are clearly young and with their mother. I would not be happy sending my grandduagter into a mixed sex toilet block. I would be happy to send her alone into a women's toilet block, though. When your child gets to about 10 years of age, they shouldn't have to be accompanied into toilets.

There is no issue with single sex toilets. They achieve what they are meant to achieve - which is privacy and dignity. Third spaces and provisions are the obvious solution for those that are uncomfortable with the provision for their own sex.

Unfortunately able bodied and disabled people, particularly women, get pushed or followed in. Also the new designs will have a mechanism where they open outwards from the outside. So you could be in there without knowledge that someone is about to let themselves in.
This is why I realise politicians involved didn’t ‘get’ the designs. One even posted on Twitter showing a letter from a lady who said thank goodness for the toilet legislation because she’d been in assaulted in a toilet twice and men will stop at nothing. Well the new designs will just make it worse. Instead of the man bashing the door in, he can just let himself in. Also the occupant has no idea who is out there so can’t message or ring for help which may prevent an attack. However, men who will stop and nothing will now have a more ‘acoustically sound’ private cubicle with no witnesses. A toilet sign is not going to stop them. It doesn’t now.

Apologies for mini-rant. It’s just researching how widespread this is for my argument to government over the last year has made me angry and upset as it’s so common. For anyone with teenagers, I would say tell them to go to nightclub toilets in pairs. Especially if they are female. I hate that women have to alter their behaviour but safety first.

The Hippodrome is a very old theatre and I immediately thought this hadn't been done well. Where I live we have unisex toilets in the town, proper brick built, self contained, floor to ceiling doors. They are great. Doing this badly isn't acceptable.

Having said that DS was at a concert recently, apparently the queue for women's loo was very long so a group of women just walked into the mens. Although he said it was a bit odd using a urinal with women walking past he felt they all dealt with it like adults and no problems.

The national theatre in london has unisex cubicles either side of a small corridor where you queue. I thought it was ok, everyone was civilised, though I expect the men hated queuing. My friend said you could just as easily be sexually harassed and that there's no safe space, but I think it's a good model. Maybe men will become less likely to splash about and will learn respect.