Genuinely want to know why trans rights trump womens?

[Devilsmommy]

I've been reading alot on here about all the different aspects of the trans debate. So firstly my view is that merely stating you're a different sex does not make it so. I don't have any issue with people wanting to change gender but I am very worried about the possibility of being made to share single sex spaces with men who say they're women. So my question is for the trans women who are genuinely changing their whole identity to become a woman, via surgery and hormones. If those trans women say they don't feel safe using the male spaces, do they really believe it's right that a whole section of the population, ie women, should be made to feel just as unsafe because of their life choice. Why do trans women's rights trump womens rights? I'm genuinely flabbergasted that it's even got this far and we women are having to fight for a very basic right not to feel uncomfortable in vulnerable situations like changing rooms, toilets etc.

The simple answer to your title question is because most TRAs are thinking about transwomen. They are men so their rights are more important than those of women. It was ever thus.

So my question is for the trans women who are genuinely changing their whole identity to become a woman, via surgery and hormones.

No man can become a woman, whatever surgery he has to modify body parts and whatever exogenous hormones he puts into himself. Because human beings can't change sex, it's impossible.

So it's men demanding rights.

Rights to override the rights and wishes of women. Does that seem more familiar now?

I was puzzled by this for a long time but really it's just that simple. Because they're men.
(And yes, obviously there are tm too but they are not really considered because...well you know!)

There's an absolutely bat shit thread running on Chat or AIBU at the moment entitled 'is anyone on here pro trans' which exemplifies the utterly selfish attitude of those demanding access to single sex spaces (when they are not that sex) and their allies.

It essentially comes down to -
Not seeing women as anything but support humans and being horrified that those despised support humans dare to object.

Because TW are men and as has been the case over the millennia, men’s rights trump women’s rights every single time. The patriarchy is alive and well among the skirt wearers - they want something therefore they will invade and take what they believe is rightfully theirs.

Very simply put, the patriarchy. Men’s (however they identify) feelings and wants are more important than women’s safety.

Men are fine giving a pass to other male bodied people to use women’s spaces as it doesn’t affect them. No skin off their noses. Fortunately more and more men are waking up to this and, very reasonably, are concerned about their wives, mothers, daughters, friends, and women in general.

When a man becomes transwo, this gives him the right to do whatever he pleases whenever he pleases, even more so than other men.

its men’s rights- that’s why they trump women’s rights

Because male entitlement doesn't go anywhere, even when worn with stilettos and pink lipstick.

That is a crazy thread! I haven't read it all (too long!) but two things about it struck me: the fact that it filled up sooo fast because sooo many people have something to say on this topic, and also the fact that there are tons of user names on there I don't recognise from FWR but who are arguing the GC position. Good!

The only reason, if you can call it 'reasonable' at all, that many women support the idea of males being in women's spaces is because they've swallowed whole - without critique or question, the belief system of gender identity. I suspect a big dollop of denial too: denial that males in women's spaces makes women feel uncomfortable.

On top of that is the command to 'be kind'...It takes advantage of women's greater tendency to sympathy for others.

Cos misogyny.

PS you can lop off all the body parts you like but you can’t change sex. A GRC is no more based in reality than a letter from the toothfairy.

It's only what happens to every GC thread, in reverse. They can't leave us alone so back at them!

You asked a reasonable question, OP: if transwomen say they don't feel safe using male spaces, do they really believe it's right that women should be made to feel just as unsafe by transwomen using women’s spaces?

But you’ll never get a reasonable answer from transactivists.

Women are actually at much greater risk of violence from males (including transwomen), here and in most places, than transwomen are from anyone. Crime statistics show that.
It’s not just about feeling unsafe but being unsafe.

(Transactivists always use stats from more violent countries like Brazil, where many transwomen work as prostitutes, who are always at risk.)

But as PPs have noted, men have higher status and more power, whether they dress as women or not. If men want to take something from women, society says “Go right ahead”. Women are meant to support men, so if we object, we’re being ‘unkind’.

It really is as simple as that.

I have been grappling with this question over the past day or so since a much younger, male, gay, former colleague whom I respect greatly intellectually tweeted criticising the Cass Report in the strongest terms.
Where I have got to is that for that generation, ‘their truth’ trumps everything else, so that someone whose truth is that they are a woman actually is a woman, and anyone who dares to deny this is a far right colonialist oppressor.
My truth is that someone with a penis is a man, but that doesn’t count it would seem.

I've only dipped into that thread, I fear it will give me severe rage if I read it all. 🫣

This ^. It's not just because they are men, but because they are a special category of human - a magical, shiny sort of "wonder-being", festooned with rainbows and glitter.

An ordinary bloke isn't allowed in women's spaces.

Trans trumps EVERYTHING.

I completely agree that you can't change sex. What I meant by that is that those two are actually medically changing their bodies to look female because they really do believe they are women. It's those ones I'd like to answer the question of why should a whole sexes feeling safe in vulnerable spaces be less important than you feeling unsafe in a male space.

I'm thinking that this is the truth of the matter. Mens rights come first, even when said man calls himself a woman 🙄

For anyone who hasn't seen the other thread, it's here:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5115405-to-ask-if-anyone-else-on-mn-is-not-anti-trans?page=1

It is now on thread 2 because the first one filled up this morning in a matter of hours.

Sorry to hijack your thread OP, but I think it's important to point out this other thead because it hasn't been quickly shoved off over here like they usually are!

It was disappointing. I thought a thread full of allies might give me a new insight into their thinking, but it just seems they believe TWAW and that's that. I know people in real life like this and we either talk past each other or they get upset by my hatefulness.

I'm sure there are lots of transwomen who are not arrogant misogynists. But they all believe something that can never be true, and that messes with their thought processes.

I don't see why they can't just use the disabled access toilets. That way they're not having to feel unsafe in the men's and they're not making women feel unsafe and uncomfortable in the ladies 🤷

Trans people are the most oppressed and marginalised people ever. This is the first and most important thing, and it is vital that if ever you are asked about women's rights you start by repeating it.

So giving transwomen women's spaces in sports or changing rooms or refuges is a tiny sacrifice if it in some way lessens the terrible pain transwomen endure every day just by being transwomen.

Women who object to this are not only venomous harridans but what's even less forgivable, they are old and unattractive to men (see India Willoughby's tweets for more details), and therefore have no needs of their own and merely pretend to have needs in order to cause fuss and trouble for other, proper human beings, ie men.

Women who go along with the dismantling of women's rights, in contrast, are nice and above all, kind, which is after all what women (the female ones) are here for - being kind to males, ie, nodding along with them and giving them everything they demand.

Men lobbying and politicians conceding

The GRA is the cause of the mess. Without that we wouldn’t have this clash between sex and gender

Sex distinction is important for women and children, gender favours men