To those who consider prostitution rape...

[Ahsoka2001]

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

there was a program the other day about a female led escort agency, interviewing non judgementally the boss and the girls),

The "girls" - do you have any idea what you sound like?

With regard to women running brothels and prostitutes, it really is nothing new. If it is necessary for the management to deal with difficult customers, or employees, then male "security " will be employed. I fail to see that the sex of the pimp makes much material difference to the prostituted women.

I think I would call strippers etc, prostituted because they are also selling their body (not their skill or ability) for the entertainment of others. The whole shebang is exploitative of women, misogynistic and something we want/need to make much less acceptable. Arresting men (or women) who buy sex, even if it results only in a small fine, is one way to make it less acceptable (doubt they want their photos up on the web as sex-purchasers). This is why I support the Nordic model, rather than decriminalisation.

We , and by "we" I mean society, need to turn punters (and that includes those "just viewing") of both sexes into the same sort of pariahs that drunk drivers have become.

There seems to be some sort of consensus on this board that it is impossible for a single woman to make a decision to sell sex without somehow being coerced into it.

Then you obviously haven't been paying attention.

The 'happy hooker' trope has been done to death. The overwhelming majority of prostituted women are not so "lucky" so why do ~men~ people insist on using a tiny minority to justify it?

I think that men want to believe the "happy hooker " trope, as then it excuses their sex from having to look at their venality. It's akin to the outrage when they are told that all men benefit from the actions of rapists (Dworkin et al). It's also, the close link between prostitution and pornography, which can be very uncomfortable for some men, especially those who would not use a prostitute but do use pornography.

Well said. It is the fear of rape which keeps women under men's control everywhere. This is not something that men (who are not rapists - i.e. almost all men) do not understand.

@Grammarnut ,

Sometimes, when I read this board, I feel I have entered an alternative universe.

None of my female friends feel that they are under men’s control at all, let alone are constantly in fear of being raped.

I suspect you will tell me this is ‘class analysis’, and I am too thick to understand that it doesn’t apply to individuals. But I also think that you wouldn’t voice this opinion outside of a very narrow section of like minded individuals.

When you say men don’t understand, I also suspect that 90% of women would neither ‘understand’ nor agree.

And that's all us hysterical women told, by the man who came to tell us about "working" in prostitution.

I'm female. I don't feel that the fear of rape keeps me under men's control everywhere. I don't feel I'm under men's control.

I am however strongly opposed to the normalisation of the "sex industry" for the reasons set out by myself and others in this thread.

I support the Nordic Model. I hope to see a day when punters are held in as much contempt as drunk drivers.

Would it bother me if my son worked as a cleaner? Hell no, why would it or should it?

Would it bother me if he were a drunk driver or a punter. Yes of course. He would be actively involved in a course of selfish conduct deeply harmful to others and easily avoided.

You're not getting it. It's not that these women are unable to choose to do this. It's that any man who would have sex with a woman who may have been forced into this work is a rapist. He has no way of knowing if she is doing it of her own free will or not. He doesn't care. How does that differ from rape? At best there's a hair's breadth of difference. For example, a drink or drug impaired date rapist might not be sure whether or not his victim is willing. That's not a defence under the law.

Of course women who do this for a living tell themselves they like it and that their clients are good guys. How else could they stand to do it? It's necessary to practice denial in order to get through it. That applies to a lot of shitty jobs. For example, I've seen coal miners interviewed who claimed to love what they do. Would you use that as an argument that coal mining is anything but dangerous, exhausting drudgery and a hazard to worker health? I'm betting not, because you wouldn't feel the need to defend the mining industry the way you do the sex trade.

The idea that legal punishment may not be a deterrent could be applicable to any crime. Lots of criminals are recidivists. Does that mean we dismantle the entire legal system?

Sorry, but none of your arguments work.

So your female friends don't hesitate to walk down a dark street in a bad neighbourhood? They don't keep an eye on their drink in a bar which is full of aggressive looking young men? They wouldn't hesitate to let a strange man into the house to use their phone? They aren't apprehensive about going to the home of a guy they've just met or letting him in their homes?
Bullshit on all counts.

That's the control. When you have to modify your lifestyle because of fear of other people, you are being indirectly controlled by those people.

The fear isn't constant, but it's there whenever you are in a position of vulnerability. So you have to avoid being in a situation where you are vulnerable.
I can predict how you are going to answer that. You are going to say that men have to modify their lifestyles to avoid being robbed. You're going to try make that false comparison, as if the thought of robbery is ever going to be as terrifying as the thought of rape. So I brought it up for you to save you from having yet another argument shot down. You're welcome.

@XChrome ,

‘So your female friends don't hesitate to walk down a dark street in a bad neighbourhood? They don't keep an eye on their drink in a bar which is full of aggressive looking young men? They wouldn't hesitate to let a strange man into the house to use their phone? They aren't apprehensive about going to the home of a guy they've just met or letting him in their homes?’

All of the above, bar the drink, would apply to me too, and most men.

There are young men in gangs who are literally prisoners in their blocks. Their fear isn’t robbery by the way (I don’t think many men fear robbery per se), it is violence and, ultimately, even death.

You have this idea that there is some utopian society where no one ever felt threatened or modified their behaviour due to other human beings, if only the pesky patriarchy would just let it happen.

I don’t believe any intelligent adult who has any education in biology believes any of that, so I am calling total bullshit.

@Newbutoldfather
Please don't tell other people what they think, as you don't know what they think. You make it abundantly clear that you have very little idea how women feel as they move through the world.
May I ask what makes you feel uncomfortable if you get into a lift? I think your answer will be different from mine.

🤣
Either you don't know many women or they aren't being open with you.
All women are scared of sexual violence from men. We are brought up to fear it as a consequence if we don't conform to certain rules e.g. out alone too late; wearing wrong clothes; being alone with a man you don't know; giving off "wrong signals"
That's before you even get to actually being sexually harassed, sexually assaulted or raped. The vast majority of women will have experienced at least one of those things.

I guess minimising that uniquely female experience probably isn't that surprising for a man who comes to a feminist board to argue why prostitution is fine though.

That's a great example. Suppose he goes to get in and it's occupied by one man, in a building that has lax security. Does he hesitate? Does he wait for the next one or decide to use the stairs? Does he get in but feel nervous and make sure he's close to the alarm button? No on all counts. If he says he does, he's either lying or a person with unusually high anxiety.

Newbutoldfather sez;

"All of the above, bar the drink, would apply to me too, and most men."

Now you're reduced to lying. I knew you would. 😄 Absolute, unmitigated bullshit.

Quote;
"There are young men in gangs who are literally prisoners in their blocks. Their fear isn’t robbery by the way (I don’t think many men fear robbery per se), it is violence and, ultimately, even death."

Are most men in gangs? Your claim was that most men live with that fear. You back it up with an example that applies to a tiny segment of society? IOW, you can't back it up, because it isn't remotely true for most men. Incidentally, women fear death too, at the hands of men. Not because they are in a gang, but because they are women. Men do not experience violence simply for being men. That reality is what you need to wrap your head around.

Quote;
"You have this idea that there is some utopian society where no one ever felt threatened or modified their behaviour due to other human beings, if only the pesky patriarchy would just let it happen."

No, dude. I know the world is a shitty place. It's just that it's shittier for women than it is for men, and it's shittier mostly because of men. The shittiness that men experience is also mostly due to men. Do the math. Women afraid of men + men (to a lesser extent) afraid of other men = men are a huge problem.

Oh, and in future, newbutoldfather, don't make up some crazy shit, tell me it's what I believe, and use that as a basis for a silly strawman argument. It's a cheap tactic employed by disingenuous debators. Surely you can do better than that.
I don't know where you think biology enters the picture here, but since your claim about what I believe is false, it doesn't matter.

I'm not sure that's entirely germane to this particular discussion. Those aren't considerations for me. I don't live and have never lived with that level of anxiety. But that's another discussion and completely irrelevant to why prostitution should be unacceptable in any decent society.

Newbutoldfather seems to have created a diversion to get away from the actual topic.

You are an outlier, then. I'm not sure that's wise, unless you live in an extremely safe area, rarely leave the house, don't date or visit with male friends.
I live in what would be considered a very safe neighborhood, don't date, but I have a neighbour who has been stalking me, FFS. This is not the first time that's happened either. You are very lucky if you've never experienced any kind of male aggression. The overwhelming majority of women have.

It's germane because newbutoldfather is trying to minimize the risks and fears that women face, thus the risks and fears that prostitutes face.
If one were to believe him, one would have to live on a fantasy island where assaults on and murders of prostitutes are unheard of instead of a fear they must face daily.

So give them the money. Then say you don't care if they have sex with you or not. THAT'S choice. Leaving the consent to sex part part fully and freely up to them.

@XChrome ,

‘No, dude. I know the world is a shitty place. It's just that it's shittier for women than it is for men, and it's shittier mostly because of men. The shittiness that men experience is also mostly due to men. Do the math. Women afraid of men + men (to a lesser extent) afraid of other men = men are a huge problem.’

So let’s just get rid of men, then, easy solution?

Except men are not only a huge problem, but a huge asset. Without testosterone, the world would be a far grimmer place for humanity (well, we would soon be extinct anyway).

But stick to your totally non-nuanced simplistic class analysis so you can remain a victim forever and ever.

Not the feminism my mother took actual risks to campaign for.

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle ,

I didn’t start the weird diversion into Dworkin and why rape ‘benefits men’. Read the thread.

There are a lot of women who seem to know that men don’t experience anxiety! They might not shout about it but, trust me, they do. Funny how (on this board) men aren’t allowed to have any insight into how women think, but women think they know exactly how all men think.

Realistically, I suffer zero anxiety now. I live in a nice area and avoid risky places. But, as a child, I had to walk past a rough area to get home and I was very aware of my surroundings and often crossed the road to avoid trouble, minorly assaulted and robbed a couple of times.

The idea that men have no security concerns is risible. Anyone sensible who lives in an urban environment develops ‘street smarts’.

Great point

Oops, grab your mask, it's slipping off 😂