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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit

216 replies

BetsyBobbin · 20/05/2024 23:22

My husband has a friend from school who's coming to stay in our city this bank holiday. Although I'm friendly with her she was never my actual friend so I never knew her well.

She'll be here for four days and is staying with a gay couple whom she's friends with and who are very much part of the blue hair/alphabet soup brigade as far as I could see (she created a WhatsApp group and included all of us in, some brief conversations have been had). Outings as a large group have been organised.

She started following me on social media recently and I followed her back just to be gobsmacked by what I saw. Yes, you can guess, all the TWAW stuff.

Now, this woman is an educated person, works as a public defender and has an eight year old daughter and I just don't understand for the life of me how can someone who who works in law and has a daughter could be so captured like that (I do have theories but never mind that now).

Now, I'm staunchly GC. Having said that, I don't want to cause any drama and I'm hoping that those outings will be finished sooner than you can say "JK Rowling". BUT, if anything remotely TRA related is brought up I don't trust myself to remain silent.

I'm obviously not changing anyone's mind in a brief conversation but is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head? I really don't want to get into long arguments trying to explain autogynephilia and what could happen to her daughter in a changing room but like I said, I don't trust myself to be quiet either.

I'm dreading this whole situation, send help please.

OP posts:
EggcornAcorn · 20/05/2024 23:24

Honestly? I wouldn't engage.

NotbloodyGivingupYet · 20/05/2024 23:28

Same. No point.

Original poster
BetsyBobbin · 20/05/2024 23:34

Do you mean stay quiet for the whole time? 🤐😂 Or only if anything is mentioned?
God, I'm having cold sweats already.

OP posts:
redalex261 · 20/05/2024 23:56

I wouldn't volunteer anything. However, if she made some kind of inane GI statement or asked you to comment or agree on said statement I would not be able to shut my face. I would be so tempted to leave my well worn copy of TRANS Gender Identity and the New Battle for Women’s Rights sitting on the arm of the sofa like this…..would that be too naughty? Maybe she’d pick it up!

Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit
Orders76 · 21/05/2024 00:05

No engagement. If really pushed I just advocate for my kids

WandsOut · 21/05/2024 00:17

Minimal engagement and attention, don't get drawn in.
It's quite interesting to watch these types of converts.

Betweenthe2 · 21/05/2024 00:22

Your contempt for her is obvious in your post. Can't you make an excuse and let your husband see his friend alone? It sounds like that would be the most comfortable option for all concerned.

GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 21/05/2024 00:25

I feel for you, I really do. How about this: try to care less about what they think and change the subject if it comes up. It can be difficult to remember that lots of people dont think too deeply about this stuff, they just buy into a set of prescribed beliefs cos its easy. I agree, to a degree, that there's a time and place for reasoned debate but this scenario isn't it unless you want things to get really awkward around the breakfast cereal. If they are argumentative gender missionaries, they might persist, and if they do, politely put the onus on them: ask open questions, make them elaborate on any thought terminating cliches, be friendly-curious about how they came to their extraordinary claims. Amd why they are so invested. Shrug and don't let it define their stay. Don't try to change their minds (for true believers, its a cult, and everyone else is hotly defensive for not thinking it through properly). You may think less of their critical thinking skills and thats okay. Agree to disagree and model tolerance for diversity of thought (and lack of it). Good luck!

OhcantthInkofaname · 21/05/2024 00:39

Once the subject is mentioned go home!

Christinapple · 21/05/2024 01:07

If you have an issue with gay people and/or people who support trans rights, I suggest letting them know as soon as you can. It will prevent further and bigger problems further down the line.

Delphinium20 · 21/05/2024 01:11

I hear you. I have friends like this. They aren't argumentative as much as they act like born again evangelicals. "Isn't it just wonderful how kids have language now to describe their fluid selves?" Or "poor transgirls are the most oppressed people who ever walked the Earth." "SHE is so stunning I could never wear that so well." That kind of silliness.

In response I occasionally roll my eyes or give an ironic laugh (a few snorts work too) but I don't argue much anymore with them because they are so brainwashed it's an emotional block. Cognitive dissonance just makes them dig in further into their beliefs. Laughing lightly and changing the subject is a far more effective strategy in social situations IMO. Sometimes a skeptical look and a "ok, then. Anyone want more pretzels?" Is the best way to handle the extreme faithful.

ThreeWordHarpy · 21/05/2024 01:13

This seems to be a common topic for threads at the moment.

is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head?

Probably not. There’s no point getting into arguments that will spoil a weekend with friends, and you’re not going to change anyone’s mind by the sound of it. It’s possible to be friends with people who hold different worldviews than yourself. So you either say nothing, leave the room or change the topic if it comes up. “Oh you know what they say, never discuss sex or politics or religion. Man City winning the league again eh, do you think they’ll do the double too?”

Change or avoid the topic enough times it will be clear you hold different opinions. If they’re genuinely interested in knowing why they’ll ask you.

ChinaBlueBell · 21/05/2024 01:26

Christinapple · 21/05/2024 01:07

If you have an issue with gay people and/or people who support trans rights, I suggest letting them know as soon as you can. It will prevent further and bigger problems further down the line.

Letting them know? It’s the Op’s personal business. This is not 1984.

lonelywater · 21/05/2024 01:48

why would you want to plant a seed of doubt in her head? The full on TRA types are literally beyond reason (if you actually believe you can change sex by saying so, then reality is not for you). I would go totally no debate-but if they pushed it they would get both barrels.

Nellodee · 21/05/2024 05:55

Could you not try, “Can we avoid contentious political issues, please?” and if they push it, “I think one of the biggest problems is unthinking tribalism and the inability to tolerate differing viewpoints without shutting them down.”

Dabralor · 21/05/2024 06:06

I doubt the sole focus of the trip is to promote her views on trans rights op.

She might not even mention it because she's busy catching up with her friends and having a nice weekend?

And, even if she does, she's entitled to think what she likes. She has her views and you have yours.

Ho early I don't see why there should be any drama here. Just have a nice weekend and appreciate each other as people and not keyboard warriors.

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 21/05/2024 06:42

I'm guessing this thread got transferred to the naughty step overnight?
OP, there will be some excellent advice along shortly.

SoundTheSirens · 21/05/2024 06:54

If her SM is a walking advert for TWAW rather than her having thought no more deeply about it than “of course we should be kind to this group we’re told are oppressed, apparently it’s just like gay rights” then you’re wasting your time trying to change her mind. She won’t want to hear it, she’ll become defensive and you’ll be the bad guy in everyone else’s eyes - including your husband’s - who “ruined her trip”.

From the vantage of several years of bitter experience, of losing friends I thought were critical thinkers who turned out unable even to agree to disagree on this (and of finding others in dark times and places), I’ve learned that you can plant seeds of doubt in the unthinking it’s-nice-to-be-kind group but never in the BE KIND, BIGOT types.

Revelatio · 21/05/2024 07:04

You both sound very similar, just have opposing views. Neither of you are going to change each other’s minds. I don’t think every conversation needs to be a heated debate, you sound like you’re spoiling for a fight. I have friends with different political views to me, we don’t discuss politics every second. Just stay home and let the others have a nice time.

justafleshwound2024 · 21/05/2024 07:08

Avoid her completely. Both of you. Edited, she's not staying with you? No need at all to engage. She'll cause disruption, cult mentality people always do.

OligoN · 21/05/2024 07:18

Betweenthe2 · 21/05/2024 00:22

Your contempt for her is obvious in your post. Can't you make an excuse and let your husband see his friend alone? It sounds like that would be the most comfortable option for all concerned.

In light of the Cass Report as a minimum, continuing to adopt a genderist position is contemptible. And given the genderist hostility to those who don’t share their view, perhaps the old playground adage of don’t give it if you can’t take it would be useful.

Cerialkiller · 21/05/2024 07:22

Ugg. My sister is a bit like this. She keeps making pointed remarks (I think she's deliberately testing me) and because we generally get together as part of family events I'm very reluctant to start anything and cause an argument because that's what will happen she's suuuper deep. Especially annoying as she's simultaneously gone 'feminist' buying 'crush the patriarchy' t shirts and attending marches, i struggle not to point out the dissonance.

I use the nod and smile technique, I conveniently get distracted by my kids, my dinner, needing to check the oven. I have brought up a few things on the edges sometimes. She was moaning about how awful it is that trans women can't be the mother on the birth certificate once. I gently told her, birth certificates belong to the child and shouldn't be validation for a parents Identity. Mother has a legal definition etc etc.
I think this was the first time she clocked I've gone over to the dark side.

I was most gratified when she started showing how 'right on' she was when my 20years younger little brother visited from abroad with his boyfriend. She was clearly expecting a receptive audience but he gently put her right and (being only 20 and gay) said he was of the generation vulnerable to all this, spoke about safeguarding, how some friends has been effected by this because of social media particularly. That then opened the debate for me to agree in a way my middle aged, hetero self couldn't.

They are both massive potter heads too so we were all happily chatting about the game and which wand they would be buying when they went to the shop in London and I could tell she didn't know what to say (she had already mentioned how evil jk was)

I would make some decisions now about the points you are willing to mention if it comes up. Child safeguarding (cass) men in womens sport, rapists in prison etc the areas that are pretty clear cut, and be prepared for their responses. It will be very easy to get deep and argumentative but keep calm and casual and logical and disengage when it gets emotional. Avoid engaging where you can though or this might get ugly. I tend to make it clear I think that it's a homophobic ideology to prove my leftie credentials too.

Tontostitis · 21/05/2024 07:24

I would wear my dinosaur necklace

MultiPolarista · 21/05/2024 07:32

Why not be totally frank (only if the subject comes up) and tell her how you feel and why, and leave her and allies to explain how a man is a woman and why everyone should pretend they have a gendered soul?
Explain to your husband beforehand the situation, remain calm throughout and leave the emotional explaining to them.
Keep it light, simple and innocent, and dont back down, just keep coming at them with questions and facts.

PurpleBugz · 21/05/2024 07:33

Nellodee · 21/05/2024 05:55

Could you not try, “Can we avoid contentious political issues, please?” and if they push it, “I think one of the biggest problems is unthinking tribalism and the inability to tolerate differing viewpoints without shutting them down.”

This is what I would say something like this. Followed up with "we will have to agree to disagree" every time they try convert/cause an argument. Then I do think I would leave and make it be known I was driven off by them not dropping the topic and being aggressive/argumentative/insulting (if they indeed had been)