Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit

[BetsyBobbin]

My husband has a friend from school who's coming to stay in our city this bank holiday. Although I'm friendly with her she was never my actual friend so I never knew her well.

She'll be here for four days and is staying with a gay couple whom she's friends with and who are very much part of the blue hair/alphabet soup brigade as far as I could see (she created a WhatsApp group and included all of us in, some brief conversations have been had). Outings as a large group have been organised.

She started following me on social media recently and I followed her back just to be gobsmacked by what I saw. Yes, you can guess, all the TWAW stuff.

Now, this woman is an educated person, works as a public defender and has an eight year old daughter and I just don't understand for the life of me how can someone who who works in law and has a daughter could be so captured like that (I do have theories but never mind that now).

Now, I'm staunchly GC. Having said that, I don't want to cause any drama and I'm hoping that those outings will be finished sooner than you can say "JK Rowling". BUT, if anything remotely TRA related is brought up I don't trust myself to remain silent.

I'm obviously not changing anyone's mind in a brief conversation but is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head? I really don't want to get into long arguments trying to explain autogynephilia and what could happen to her daughter in a changing room but like I said, I don't trust myself to be quiet either.

I'm dreading this whole situation, send help please.

I'm a feminist and caring about women and girls who have been impacted by men behaving badly is a worthy cause. I care when women are raped by men in prisons or are forced to share domestic violence shelters with men.

You don't have to care about women and girls, but I do and I demand politicians care too as I vote as well.

All over the media (far right, anti-trans e.g. Daily Mail) like it or not thanks to being posted by JK Rowling. They don't have much choice when that happens do they.

No. All over the media BEFORE Rowling made the comment. This is a person who has courted media attention - a fact you seem keen on ignoring.

Could you not call people TERFs please. It's a misogynistic slur.

Nothing else of concern other than LGBT people existing and doing their own thing?

That stupid acronym again. If TRAs were happy for lesbians to do their own thing, they wouldn’t have shut Jenny Watson’s lesbian speed dating event, they wouldn’t be all over lesbian dating apps and lesbian groups wouldn’t have to stay underground in order to avoid TRAs complaining to their venues when they’re not allowed to join in.

It's a term for gender critical people.
I've seen "can you not say GC please it's dehumanising" on here.
If you don't want people to say the T word either, how are you supposed to describe?!
How about if we're policing words, we start not using the word TRA fto describe absolutely everyone who isn't completely on board with the "gender critical" viewpoint?
It doesn't make you an activist to just simply be someone who is trans and going about their lives in peace, or to be someone who isn't trans but doesn't have a problem being around someone who is, or seeing them in public facing jobs.

Is there an equivalent to this for the term "TRA"?

www.terfisaslur.com

I think you’re getting confused. Some posters may not consider themselves GC, or may be somewhat frustrated with the phrase having lost its original meaning to become short hand for “believes in biological reality”, but no one considers it a slur so far as I’m aware, and I spend a lot of time on FWR. “TERF” and “cis” are the slurs around here; there’s even a website of long standing called “terfisaslur” documenting the absolute shitloads of abuse and threats women receive - as per the example above - for standing up for our rights. MN agree and if anyone reports your post, it will be deleted for your use of the T word.

I think you’re getting confused

Nope, I'm not. Nice try though.

and I spend a lot of time on FWR

Same bad habit I'm trying to kick but means I know what I've seen.

Well, that's your opinion. In the meantime the rest of us saw and inwardly digested the vile tweets that man sent in respect of JKR and will come to our own opinion. Which is that he is a bully.

i don't mind TERF i am literally a TW excluding (mostly radical) feminist so i just gloss over it. I am not worried about being called GC because it's pretty self explanatory, it is being anti gender stereotypes for the most part. I like Sex Realist because that hits the spot (but then nobody who is a TRA is going to use that)

The one thing i will not accept is CIS.

but we're digressing, how did it go @BetsyBobbin ?

@Brefugee Since I don't agree that anyone who believes TWAW is a feminist, as far as I'm concerned the only words I need for myself in this debate are "woman" and "feminist".

From your description I would say you are a TWERF rather than a TERF (assuming you believe feminism includes women who don't identify as women), but I still think the TWER is redundant.

There's nothing particularly radical about believing that feminism is for and about female people, not male people.

I'll include all women in my feminism, but trans-men are complicated since they don't count themselves as women, so -meh, i don't need to think about them that much.

I don't need a label. But I'm not getting bent out of shape if anyone uses one. Exception is cis, i don't accept it.

I include all females, including trans men - I have known enough of them that now re-identify as women to know that they need feminism whether they like it or not.

I might throw in a "don't you think it's sexist that people think personality traits can be male or female?" Don't make any statements, just ask questions!

have known enough of them that now re-identify as women to know that they need feminism whether they like it or not

Oh, speaking for all trans men now, just because you know a few of them.
Just like some feminists claim to speak for all women with their "GC" views.
🙄

I am not speaking FOR them, I am saying that I consider them female - which they are. Your logic is lacking. Everybody is male or female. For me, feminism is for females - how someone identifies is irrelevant. It is ridiculous to suggest that I should not include trans men in my feminism because they are men - that is a belief system I do not sign up to. Why would I?

@GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. " - Andrea Dworkin

Afternoon to all of you fellow Terfs, GCs, "sex realists" (I like this one), and the rest of you lost to gender ideology.

We went to the gig, lots of gin, lots of wine, not a lot of opportunity to get into deep discussions and thank fuck for that! 🙏

We're meeting again tomorrow for a walk along the river and drinks. I'm anticipating a more quiet environment and so more conversations will be had as opposed to going to a gig. I shall report back again as is my duty 🫡

Ever heard of a racist hate forum called "kiwifarms? It's basically this (the image you posted) but with trans people and black people as targets.

"Could you not call people TERFs please. It's a misogynistic slur."

JK Rowling uses it often and even has advertised mugs that have "TERF" on them.

"That stupid acronym again [LGBT]. If TRAs were happy for lesbians to do their own thing, they wouldn’t have shut Jenny Watson’s lesbian speed dating event, they wouldn’t be all over lesbian dating apps and lesbian groups wouldn’t have to stay underground in order to avoid TRAs complaining to their venues when they’re not allowed to join in."

Well it's certainly just your opinion if "LGBT" is a "stupid acronym", plenty will disagree there.

There are plenty of very popular and successful gay bars and dating apps inclusive of trans people who have no intention of changing and will ban any transphobic trolls who sign up to hate and cause trouble, this includes Grindr and Her. Trans people I'm sure have no interest in "invading" dating apps or bars that specifically exclude trans people because there isn't any need to- the ones that welcome trans people are more popular and more fun :)

@Christinapple can I ask you a question please? Do lesbians have penises?

Over to you.

Wow.

OK, first of all, what the hell has kiwifarms got to do with the people you are calling "TERFs"?

You know that's not a feminist forum, right?

Wait, silly me, of course you know it's not a feminist forum.

The fact that [nasty group of transphobic, homophobic, racist shit bags] post hateful material about trans/gay/black people on kiwifarms is in no way a good excuse for trans activists posting hateful material about and making overt threats to a completely different group of people.

The people you so nastily refer to as "TERFs" are simply women who believe they have the right to a word for themselves, to have their own single sex spaces and sports, and to say "no" to men.

If you have any evidence of any actual feminists making threats towards or posting hateful material about trans people, please do share it with the class.

Otherwise, I suggest you stop using the word "TERF" as a slur. The fact that some women have attempted to reclaim it doesn't make it OK for you to use it as a slur, just like the fact that some black people have attempted to reclaim the "N" word doesn't make it OK for you to call them that.

As for objecting to the LGBT+ acronym, many people (including many LGB people) have a problem with it.

Lesbian = female person who is exclusively sexually attracted to other female people
Gay man = male person who is exclusively sexually attracted to other male people
Bisexual = person who is sexually attracted to people of both sexes
Trans = believes they have a gender identity which conflicts with their biological sex

One of these things is not like the other three. And thanks to the one that is not like the other three, the L has been redefined to include male people and the G has been redefined to include female people, which many people are not OK with.

As for the +, there are some serious concerns about what the hell the + stands for and whether LGB people want to be associated with it.

Unfortunately the LGBT+ acronym now represents a kind of force teaming, with many people, particularly from the T+ part of it, openly saying that the LGB shouldn't be allowed to leave and organise themselves separately. That sounds like an abusive marriage to me.

Trans people I'm sure have no interest in "invading" dating apps or bars that specifically exclude trans people because there isn't any need to- the ones that welcome trans people are more popular and more fun :)

There’s a court case ongoing in Australia because a TW refused to take no for an answer when trying to join an app that was meant only for women. So the TW took them to court. There is a women’s shelter in Canada which lost its state funding because it wanted only to be for women and some TWs were unhappy about it. You may even have heard of the case last week in Edinburgh where a shelter run by a TW who lied about their sex when applying for the role got absolutely hammered in court for discriminating against a staff member for asking sensible questions relating to the rights of women to be counselled only by women.

I could go on but in short, you are “sure” about something that you are completely wrong about. Women’s spaces are under constant threat. And when women meet to talk about their rights at Let Women Speak events, TRAs turn up to disrupt them and try to drown them out.

Trans people I'm sure have no interest in "invading" dating apps or bars that specifically exclude trans people because there isn't any need to- the ones that welcome trans people are more popular and more fun

Fucksake, what rock have you been living under that you're completely oblivious to the dating apps, bars, Facebook groups, women's health forums, breastfeeding support groups, women's book clubs etc etc etc that men calling themselves women make a point of colonising?

Essentially if something is badged as "for women" then some man in a dress will make a point of inserting himself into it.

These men don't give a fuck about women's rights, needs or wishes, they just want to stick two fingers up at us. Such womanly, many sisterhood.

Trans people I'm sure have no interest in "invading" dating apps

You are so wrong but you know that.

I do think a lot of men get a primal desire to start ‘herding’ women into their personal harem, when they see a group of females with no male overlord. Like a stag spotting a group of unguarded does, or a polygynist or a pimp with many prostitutes under his control. And it needn’t be a sexual thing. It can be all about status- demonstrating his power and control over women in order to get respect from other men.

It is sickening how women can feel so insecure without a male overlord that they’ll feel that a man is the ‘best candidate’ for a women-only service provided for women who suffered male violence. None of it is rational. It’s primal.