Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit

[BetsyBobbin]

My husband has a friend from school who's coming to stay in our city this bank holiday. Although I'm friendly with her she was never my actual friend so I never knew her well.

She'll be here for four days and is staying with a gay couple whom she's friends with and who are very much part of the blue hair/alphabet soup brigade as far as I could see (she created a WhatsApp group and included all of us in, some brief conversations have been had). Outings as a large group have been organised.

She started following me on social media recently and I followed her back just to be gobsmacked by what I saw. Yes, you can guess, all the TWAW stuff.

Now, this woman is an educated person, works as a public defender and has an eight year old daughter and I just don't understand for the life of me how can someone who who works in law and has a daughter could be so captured like that (I do have theories but never mind that now).

Now, I'm staunchly GC. Having said that, I don't want to cause any drama and I'm hoping that those outings will be finished sooner than you can say "JK Rowling". BUT, if anything remotely TRA related is brought up I don't trust myself to remain silent.

I'm obviously not changing anyone's mind in a brief conversation but is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head? I really don't want to get into long arguments trying to explain autogynephilia and what could happen to her daughter in a changing room but like I said, I don't trust myself to be quiet either.

I'm dreading this whole situation, send help please.

I’ve got a friend like this. I try to keep the peace so, for example, if she mentions toilets I do something like agree with her that trans/NB should feel safe in toilets but extend it to all people. If she then goes TWAW, I nod sympathetically and point out that many women want to maintain the single sex provision in the Equality Act for a variety of reasons, eg if their religion requires it. This usually stops them or they then move to ‘having a separate space for people like them’ whereupon I nod and agree and say that a unisex toilet in addition to single sex spaces is a great idea.

Of course, that’s not what they meant but they can’t argue with that, and careful guiding of the conversation can mean we ‘agree’ on a number of things. I never directly say that TWANW but I politely and carefully make sure I don’t compromise my beliefs while giving the impression that my friend must agree with these things too. Toilets are example, rape centres another. For that, I lead her to agree that a single sex plus unisex option were best. She didn’t start off by saying that but I pretended she agreed by leading her along a similar path as above.

I have closed a conversation down with firm I'm sorry but I cannot agree with biological men being placed in a women's prison with vulnerable women."

Its a difficult one for even TRAs to argue, as Sturgeon discovered.

I would avoid the subject altogether. Keep conversation light. No point in getting into a row.

I would be tempted to say “I have a completely different point of view to you, but I want us to have a nice time together, so shall we avoid discussing anything political while you are here so we can just enjoy ourselves? Let’s prioritise getting along”.

I find I can’t do the nod and smile thing unfortunately. I feel degraded to be assumed to agree with horrifying ideas.

Is she really the type of person who would shoehorn this topic into the average conversation? My wife has just completed a Master's programme in an ideologically captured university, with teachers who have written books on queer theory. Even then, the topic of gender identity came up much less often than she expected/worried about.

Come up with a stock phrase you could use if it does happen, like "this has been all over the news lately, hasn't it? A big topic that is quite contentious, I'd rather not get into it today" and do your best to refuse to engage.

Where's your partner in all this, BTW?

Yet somehow my nieces take was that the fault lay with prisons not being safe enough for everyone .
Best to go down the polite refusal to engage or change the subject rapidly and randomly if she brings it up.

This is a sensible approach.

Avoid the friend at all costs. I wouldn't want to spend time with someone like this.

I agree the nod and smile is galling but when I'm not quick thinking enough in the moment it's that or going full on terf and sometimes it isn't the right moment or I will come off as nuts because I've been holding back. I try and be more strategic with it and only go into it over arguments that are fairly mainstream (sports, children, prisons) as you have the weight of more obvious reason and popular opinion behind you and can avoid going into nuance which is more likely to get heated. What can they even say to 'i don't think rapists should be in woman's prisons' that doesn't make them seem naive/blind.

I aspire to have a casual 'oh I disagree' type answer to everything and then that leaves it open to anyone to start the debate by asking why. They can do the work to avoid conflict too.

I’d go along for one short evening out then have a terrible migraine for the rest of her visit because she sounds annoying.

@BetsyBobbin your OP has me wondering if our husbands share the same old friend!!
The last time we saw her (invited to dinner while we were visiting town she lives in) she raised the topic, I played dumb and asked questions and she was stumped by the prison question.
She twigged pretty quickly that I was only playing dumb, and I felt bad for not respecting her as a host and keeping my mouth shut, but I'm now very glad I won't be invited to catch up with her when we're visiting the area - she's very posh and I've always found her difficult.

I'm sad at the depth of shame at her femaleness that evidently informs her position (e.g. "ugh, who'd want to be defined by having breasts and all"), but I don't miss having to make small talk with someone I never liked very much.

I wouldn't bring the subject up myself but if she did I might say something about it being important that children are allowed to grow up before making irreversible decisions and that the Cass review seemed important. Or that you understand different identities but boys winning girls competitions didn't seem fair.

Then, but it's complex so let's not spend your short time here on controversial issues.

Just enough to show lack of compliance but not enough to ruin the atmosphere.

Or is that naive?

I'm gender critical but "blue haired alphabet soup" is just downright homophobic.

Anyone who thinks lesbians can have / should engage with penises is homophobic.

And ‘alphabet soup’ is a perfectly valid description for the long list of initials which bundle sexuality in with gender identity and whatever queer & the plus are. My rule of thumb is that the longer the acronym, the less it has to do with LGB rights.

@BetsyBobbin Does your husband know about your views and hers?

Why? It's not referring to same sex attracted people, but to everything to the right of the LGB.

If she starts a conversation, I would just say, with our vastly differing views on this subject, I suggest we move on to something else.

And don't engage

‘Blue haired alphabet soup’ is not a phrase I’d use myself but maybe I understand it differently because my take is that it refers to Trans people and would never associate it with someone being homophobic. Transphobic perhaps since they have their own unique word.

The trouble is that if you suggest agreeing to disagree, they will say that it isn't a matter of debate, TWAW, trans people exist and are valid, you don't get to disagree about something as fundamental as another person's existence, yadda yadda.

Saying "let's not get into an argument about this" will be interpreted and reframed as "I am a bigot who doesn't like trans people and I can't justify my point of view because it's just bigotry".

Basically, unless you are willing to just keep your mouth shut and silently seethe, you have to get into an unwinnable argument.

I would practice my voice. Yes, I would say something. I'm trying to learn to be like Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock etc at being so fantastically unemotional whilst presenting facts. I'd love to be able to look her in the eye and challenge her misogyny in a clear unemotional voice. So. I'd see it as practice.

If it comes up, just say you're not religious, and not an extremist. (Letting men in women's toilets and win and women's sports is extremist in my view...)

I'd keep my mouth firmly shut. You won't sow seeds of doubt in somebody like this, the only thing you'll do is make them decide you're a big ol' literal violence murdering bigot and further entrench them in their views. It's just the things one who believes that men are women need to do in order to maintain their ego.

Keep it zipped, and do you damn hardest not to give off any clues, because people like this love to sniff out "bigots" and "call them out" - act with perfect poise and grace and let your H enjoy his friend's visit.

I have a friend like this. I don't think she has any idea how polar opposite our views are as it very rarely makes its way into conversation. I second the nod and smile technique as a PP mentioned - this worked well last time I saw her, when she made a comment about Drag Queen Story Hour.

You have different opinions. You won't change her mind. She wont change yours

Just dont talk about those subjects.

OK, having read through all the replies, this is what I would do.

First, talk to your husband. Presumably he knows what your views are. Does he agree with them? Does he know how wedded his friend is to her views and how likely she is to bring them up in conversation?

Say to him what you've said here. Basically, "So... your friend Katie added me on Facebook the other day and her timeline is wall to wall trans rights stuff. As you know, I have a very different opinion about all that stuff, and I've encountered people with those kind of views before who find any excuse to drop it into conversation to see what side you're on and start a fight if you have views they disagree with. How do I navigate this if she brings it up in conversation? This really is an important issue for me and whilst I'm happy not to bring the subject up myself, I also don't feel comfortable sitting in silence while someone else spouts all these views unchallenged. It's making me dread her visit, to be honest."

See what your husband says and decide on your strategy following that conversation.

If you do want to be prepared to challenge her on her views, I'd have a few well prepared lines.

My red line is people slagging off JK Rowling. The reason for this is because she's been so brave sticking her head above the parapet on behalf of all women and girls that it feels like utter cowardice to sit and listen to other people laying into her without saying anything. I did stick up for her recently in a parenting WhatsApp group and was promptly kicked out of it, but at least my integrity remained intact.

I think what I would say if anyone raises JK Rowling in the future is this:

"Everyone keeps saying JK Rowling is transphobic, but I've read what she has written and I don't actually think she is. She's not saying that trans people's rights are unimportant, she's saying that women's rights and child safeguarding are equally important. To be honest with you, I think the idea that women are allowed to have some single sex spaces and sporting categories of their own is one that most people support. And I don't know anyone who thinks it's a good idea to perform risky medical interventions on trans children whose brains aren't fully developed yet and don't fully understand the consequences of the choice they are making. She might be unusual in expressing these views so publicly and to such a large audience, but her views themselves are really very mainstream."