Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit

[BetsyBobbin]

My husband has a friend from school who's coming to stay in our city this bank holiday. Although I'm friendly with her she was never my actual friend so I never knew her well.

She'll be here for four days and is staying with a gay couple whom she's friends with and who are very much part of the blue hair/alphabet soup brigade as far as I could see (she created a WhatsApp group and included all of us in, some brief conversations have been had). Outings as a large group have been organised.

She started following me on social media recently and I followed her back just to be gobsmacked by what I saw. Yes, you can guess, all the TWAW stuff.

Now, this woman is an educated person, works as a public defender and has an eight year old daughter and I just don't understand for the life of me how can someone who who works in law and has a daughter could be so captured like that (I do have theories but never mind that now).

Now, I'm staunchly GC. Having said that, I don't want to cause any drama and I'm hoping that those outings will be finished sooner than you can say "JK Rowling". BUT, if anything remotely TRA related is brought up I don't trust myself to remain silent.

I'm obviously not changing anyone's mind in a brief conversation but is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head? I really don't want to get into long arguments trying to explain autogynephilia and what could happen to her daughter in a changing room but like I said, I don't trust myself to be quiet either.

I'm dreading this whole situation, send help please.

But we have absolutely no indication its going to come up in conversation. This is all based on OP seeing some shared social media posts?

I share lots of things to my social media but I wouldn't dream of randomly bringing them up in conversation especially with strangers, much less go on a tirade like a 'blue haired cult dickhead') (Lovely language on this thread, as usual).

You are welcome to see this person as a woman doing their job if you want to (not sure why their marital status is relevant) but nobody should be forced to pretend to see a male person as a woman if they disagree.

I doubt JK Rowling cares what trans activists think of her.

She has the support of millions of women who are so glad she is saying what we are all thinking (but might get fired for saying out loud, because apparently this oppressed minority has that kind of power).

I always find a very good way of disagreeing with someone without getting their back up and turning into an argument is saying something along the lines of

“I see it differently. You can disagree with me, but I see it differently”

I don’t think it’s worth getting into a discussion with people, as it’s such a divisive and emotional topic. It’ll dominate the conversation and it’s boring. Don’t engage. I remember being told “just because someone is spouting rubbish, doesn’t mean that you’re in the business of digging through the bins” or something to that effect

I find talking about how ridiculous and reductive stereotypes are is a good one which everyone agrees on and that tras don't realise is what they're supporting most of the time.

If anyone else is present, for goodness sake put them first. I can't think of anything worse than having to endure witnessing an argument on this subject when I'm at a social occasion.

Defending one's point of view does not trump consideration for others present. I have a subject that I feel intensely strongly about, and which unfortunately a sizeable proportion of the population (including a couple of my friends) feel very differently about. If we're in company, especially socially, there's no way I would either bring up the subject or enter into a discussion about it. It's not the time or the place.

They see my social media, and they have the grace not to mention it in company either. I hope you can both do the same

I'd avoid her at all costs. What a waste of life spending time with such a ghastly person!

Ghastly?!
Bit OTT, no?!
When OP sounds like hasn't even met her properly yet as don't really know each other, and is only going off what they've seen by stalking her social media.

@Christinapple are you always this unpleasant or is it only on Fridays?

I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them

Yeah, think that ship has well and truly sailed, otherwise wouldn't have a problem letting the referee you mention live life in peace "any way that feels authentic" instead of singling out on Twitter.

I used to live in the US and sometimes went to DH work dinners and things. There were a wide range of people at these things, most of them lovely, but some had very different views to me - mostly pro life, pro gun types. These people were DH bosses and their wives.

If it came up, which was not often to be honest, I could never bring myself to say I agreed obviously, but I’d just say I’m on a different page politically and I don’t want to talk about this kind of thing and change the subject.

Hope it goes smoothly this evening OP!

Get a long list of questions prepped:

Do you really believe people change sex?
What is gender?
What does trans mean?
I can't believe you really think men have a place in women's prisons?

She sounds insufferable and if she is prepared to raise The Topic in your company, then I don't see why you shouldn't engage. Let's face it, it will be a lot more fun for you than sitting on your tongue feeling angry.

Deep breath & go for it.

I feel like the sort of person who would prep a list of questions to catch someone out at a social gathering based on their social media profil would also be fairly insufferable...

From what I saw it's just a happily married woman doing her job who has the support of her team and club, and friends who think very low of JK Rowling over what she did.

But Clark is not a woman - otherwise there would be no story. There are plenty of women referees (not as many as men I grant you) so this story really makes no sense. We are simultaneously meant to accept Clark as a woman and understand that this is an exceptional achievement.

You could do this. You'd look both unhinged and incredibly rude.

Or you could be hospitable and respectful of her right to hold her own opinions.

If you can't stand to have a person with such views in your home without challenging them then they shouldn't be in your home.

If my husband had a friend/colleague with gender critical views I would welcome them here and extend every courtesy to them. I would not attempt to radicalise them.

This thread is the most conclusive proof that the discussions around trans 'issues' on MN are batshit. This entire thread is batshit. Possibly even this reply.

I wouldn't be confrontational but there are some things that I couldn't let lie. I was at a dinner recently where someone started talking about "people who are neither male nor female". 🙄

"I doubt JK Rowling cares what trans activists think of her."

There's no clear proof that the friends and football team/club members who are supportive of the trans referee are what you call "trans activists". They are just people who don't have any issue with trans people and think lowly of JK Rowling for posting about her with unnecessary snarky and mean comments (some may think she is being clever, but that's not how they appear to people who don't have an issue with trans people).

People often ask "tell me what JK Rowling has said that's transphobic", but I think her intentions should be questioned when she posts a pic of a trans woman (who isn't a criminal, or sex offender or anything like that, just a normal everyday non-famous trans woman) to her 14 million followers many of whom really are transphobic and proceed to post abuse and malicious allegations. I believe JK Rowling knows fully well what some of her followers are going to post whenever she brings everyone's attention to a specific trans woman.

It's almost as if she's inciting certain followers of hers to post things she wants to say herself (but wouldn't get away with). So her actions have resulted in abusive comments being made against trans women and then she can say she didn't post them herself as "proof" she isn't transphobic. Good strategy of hers huh? How to be a transphobe in disguise hoping noone notices what she's doing.

I'm going to give my opinion about her (which some here many not like)- JK Rowling is transphobic and it is increasingly becoming an obsession which many are noticing (she is becoming a bit of a laughing stock). As well as the words, the tone and intent gives it all away. There is just no other reason to be so concerned with a trans referee whom noone else has an issue with.

"JK is transphobic". You just won yourself a million quid. (apart from the small matter of providing proof to back up that statement-pro tip "that's what I think" is not proof)

just a normal everyday non-famous trans woman

...who happens to be an activist, who has campaigned for trans women in womens sports and is all over the media...not just someone who is trying to quietly live their life at all.

Let's keep our fingers crossed that truth doesn't rear it's ugly head then eh?

I think the Mara Yamauchi thread and interview give the clearest explanation as an answer to why women need women’s sports to go back to being single sex.

I think women have to start speaking up about the problems that trans activists and gender ideologies are causing to women and freedom speech. Why are women scared of upsetting TRAs they're certainly not afraid to upset us. We all need to start pointing out the effect this is having on women's rights to dignity safety and privacy and fairness.
i think the best thing is to ask them questions about what they actually mean .
how do you know what a woman feels like? What does trans mean, does that mean there are souls with a gender floating round waiting to jump into a babies body?

All over the media (far right, anti-trans e.g. Daily Mail) like it or not thanks to being posted by JK Rowling. They don't have much choice when that happens do they.

Can you see how JK Rowling comes across to people who aren't heavily into gender critical beliefs?

Rowling: Here's a trans woman referee. He's a man!
Everyday people (who aren't gender critical): Yeah so what?
Rowling: That means he has a penis. He is a penised person.
Everyday people: Yeah so what?
Rowling: Well all these trans women I post about probably have penises. Don't you think so?
Everyday people [awkwardly]: We dunno, we don't think about what's between people's legs.
Rowling: Look at all these trans women! They're all men and they all have penises! They might run a race with these penises or go to a cubicle in a women's bathroom with their penis or referee a football match they can't do that they're overweight men with penises!
Everyday people: Wow what a creep JK Rowling has became. She has a thing about trans people.
TERFs: JK Rowling is just telling the truth! You're a trans rights activist who doesn't want women to have rights!

Seriously, that's what the whole thing looks like outside of communities like here or twitter. Most people don't have an issue with trans people and think JK Rowling has developed a rather unhealthy obsession.

Everyday people [awkwardly]: We dunno, we don't think about what's between people's legs.

Everyday people are fully aware who the men are and who the women are, or does Christinapple think everyday people are really stupid?

I think you’ll find the conversation is more like:

Rowling: Here's a transwoman football manager*. He's a man.
Everyday people (whether or not considering themselves GC): Yeah, we can see that?
Rowling: He calls himself a woman and is being given credit for achieving as a “woman in a man’s world”.
Everyday people: WTF is that stupidity? Of course he’s a man!

*A football manager is not the same as a football referee. I realise that might be a tricky concept to grasp for someone who thinks a man is the same as a woman, but it’s useful to learn the differences between things.

A gender critical person thought Helen Joyce was trans on twitter.

This also leads to an obsession with what sex people are which can disadvantage women, i.e. I have seen on twitter TERFs analyse photos of people trying to determine what sex they are. It's not healthy and reinforces stereotypes of what men and women "should" look like (not everyone meets the stereotype). This could for example mean a masculine looking woman could be mistaken as trans by a gender critical in a locker room for example.

Are trans people really what our politicians should be focusing their attention on? What about other stuff like poor people starving and freezing every winter etc? The cost of living? Nothing else of concern other than LGBT people existing and doing their own thing?