Biological sex

[fromtheshires]

Ive been reading a lot of posts on the main boards where FWR keeps coming up about trans women are men and have a question so thought I'd ask it on here.

I am fully aware I'm going to get flamed before I ask it but it's a question that i actually think is important to help me understand this topic.

It usually ends up an argument about toilets and safe spaces on the main boards so my question is if a biological female to male trans person was to use the women's toilets what would the reaction be at seeing someone with muscles, tattoos and a beard in the female toilets because they are biologically female but look like a man? What about someone who was raped but attends a female only SA support group because they are biologically female?

And before you all begin, I'm no guardian journo, just interested in the responses to broaden my understanding

I’m glad you’ve asked this as I wonder the same.
I always read on here that it’s obvious, trans people stand out etc etc.
But actually (those I follow on Instagram) I would say pass REALLY well.

Sex is biological. No need for ‘biological’. Females is also a biological category. Females have muscles too and many women (adult human females) also have tattoos.

Why do you think they want to use female spaces?

This is partly why I'm asking. I mean this is an extreme example but there is no way I would expect this person to be female to male

vm.tiktok.com/ZGeXmCbmx/

Toilets are, and have been for as long as separate toilets have existed, separated by sex, not gender. Transmen should use the toilets appropriate for their sex, but it's up to men to decide if transmen are welcome in their toilets, not women.

The fact that transmen have undergone extreme body modification to mimic the secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex does make it more likely that they will be challenged, and have to explain their presence, but that's a consequence of the decision they made when they transitioned, and isn't the fault of the other women who will use the toilet.

We have had female posters in the past who we have had discussions with who have said that they fully understand, being female, the distress their presence causes in other traumatised female people. That taking testosterone does have greater impact in disguising female sex cues and they take responsibility for their decisions. Therefore, they will choose not to enter those spaces unless it is absolutely necessary.

We have also had other female posters who are not taking testosterone who mention that when they get asked if they are in the correct space, they reply that they are female and once people hear the voice, they are assured. There are even some who thank other women for asking those questions. Because those women, in their eyes, are doing their bit for protecting other female people.

However, this argument that you are mentioning, has also been weaponised to shut down discussion about male access. Because some people believe it is a 'gotcha'. When it is not really.

Yep! And if you saw him in the men’s loos you wouldn’t even question it!

We don't separate toilets based on people off the internet who appear to "pass". They are based on sex. As the two sexes have distinct sex-based needs when in toilet cubicles.

I find the thought of a transman having a miscarriage in the one stinky cubicle in the gents quite grim.

Great post!

Imagine if male people fully respected female people's needs and stayed out of female spaces. Imagine if female people had the full confidence that any person in that space is only female (over the age of about 8!).

But that is just a pipe dream and that time has passed by a very long time ago.

Of course trans men should be welcome in women's spaces.

Not sure what muscles and tattoos have to do with it. I agree that a beard might make someone look like they aren't female, but plenty of women who do not have trans identities get mistaken for men from time to time, and may have their presence questioned (that happened to me once, when I was a tomboy teen). So there is nothing new in respect of trans men who might face the same question. Embarrassing but hardly a world-stopping issue.

If a trans man (for example the one linked by the OP) came into the changing room whilst I was in there and said “oh it’s ok I was born female” I’d not believe them and assume they were a pervert?

A woman who has done all they can to look a man is still entitled to use the women's facilities. However they can also expect to be questioned as to why a man is using the women's if they pass enough to be mistaken for a man. This is where the third spaces option open to all sexes and genders (and not just reclassifying the disabled toilets either) makes sense.

There will be women who have done everything they can to be mistaken successfully for a man and there will be men who have done everything they can to be mistaken successfully for a woman. This doesn't mean they should use the opposite toilets etc from their actual sex.

As for the SA support, the woman would have to realise that her presence looking like the man she wishes she was at a women only group could be really hard on the other women attending and maybe the transman would be better attending a mixed group or a trans group.

Thank you for a post that is actually answering my question and not just being argumentative.

I only added muscles and tattoos as i was thinking of body builder types who are typically super muscly and heavily tattooed to emphasise the point i was trying to make.

There's a world of difference between instagram and real life. In real life you see height, gait, body frame proportions, all the things that are hidden in a well posed picture.
My experience of seeing bearded transmen is that it's still really obvious that they are female. I don't doubt they think they are passing, and possibly all their friends are telling them that they pass really well, but it's still been obvious to me.

Sex is usually quite easy to observe.

That said, while I have no issue with transmen in women's spaces, it is possible that they may alarm women if they 'pass' as male.

What do you think, OP?

Perhaps transmen should be free to use male spaces. The issue is likely to be risk to the transmen, though.

Because no matter what someone's 'gender', sex still matters, and males are and remain a risk to females whereas females (statistically, in general) are not and will not ever be a risk to males, no matter how anyone's 'gender identity' changes.

99% of sexual assaults are carried out by males.
The sexes are not equal.

I think the filtered pictures used almost ubiquitously on Instagram are unlikely to give an accurate picture of how anyone appears in real life. Some of my (not trans) friends are all but unrecognisable in their own carefully chosen, posed and filtered images.

Transmen tend to pass better than transwomen.

As males, TW are the same threat to women as other males. As females, TM are the same threat to men as other females.

Some people say that transmen are female and so are welcome in female spaces. I disagree. TM are not a threat to men, and have taken steps (voluntarily) that means their presence in female only spaces has the potential to distress and alarm other women. As such, they should use the men’s or (if there is one) a unisex toilet (not the disabled!).

TW rarely “pass”, and even if they do they are no less a threat to women than other men, so should not be in female only spaces.

@fromtheshires Whilst you are on the FWR board, have a look at the other threads - I recommend this one, in particular, the Sunday Post article. The issue is far from being all about toilets, not that you would know it from the criticism we receive from some quarters!

Holyrood summit hears from teens, parents and experts who claim children are pressured into swapping genders | Mumsnet

I just want to say it's very easy for MtF to look like they 'pass' in photographs on social media...like many things on Instagram they are likely highly edited, with certain poses etc. Men do not look like women in real life, so it's usually much easier to tell.

As for the OP, you're right, for FtM i.e. biological women who take testosterone, grow a beard, bind their breasts etc. it is much easier for them to 'pass' as a slight male. I have no issue with these women using female spaces, no matter how they choose to present.

I think it is a difficult issue as many of these young women would be uncomfortable using male spaces, and therefore may feel they 'stand out' in a female space. But I think you'll find most women are accommodating of biological women however they present, it's the biological males we don't want in our spaces.

@ArabellaScott personally I don't care who uses what space. It's why I'm asking the question on this sub-forum. My stance on it is live and let live as long as you aren't hurting anyone but it seems like it's very much anti trans on the main boards and a lot of discussions end up being hijacked. Thats why I've come here to ask/discuss so i understand.

I do get others may feel uncomfortable though if they see what appears to be a male in the female changing rooms.

@misscockerspaniel - thanks ill have a read now!

As PP have said, Instagram is not real life. Any of these people might 'pass', in a solo pic online. In a candid group photo? I don't think any of us have trouble telling who is which sex.

@fromtheshires

My stance on it is live and let live as long as you aren't hurting anyone

Perhaps as we've all answered your question you might indulge me in answering one of mine?

Why do you think separate toilet facilities exist? I promise it's not a "gotcha".

@fromtheshires

Would you explain what you believe is the behaviour that is ‘anti—trans’ on MN please?

What about risks to transmen using men's facilities? You do understand there's a reason transmen aren't put in men's prisons, I imagine?